While the statue artist has cleared the statue for unveiling—see below “street test”— Derrick has requested that it not be on display until he knows, in his mind, that it’s ready.
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Posted by Poohdini on 03 May 2013 - 03:18 PM
While the statue artist has cleared the statue for unveiling—see below “street test”— Derrick has requested that it not be on display until he knows, in his mind, that it’s ready.
Posted by Djoker on 08 July 2012 - 12:10 PM
Posted by Djoker on 31 October 2011 - 09:59 AM
Everyone seems to be making one of these lists lately so I might as well. I won’t bore you with statistics unless it’s truly something exceptional but I’ll give my own views on these top 25 players and where they fit on the ladder of greatness. All factors like peak, longevity, competition, strength of teams, player profile (completeness of game, strengths, weaknesses), and intangibles will be considered. But allow me to make a disclaimer. Accomplishments generally do take precedence over anything else. A player with a monster peak but nothing else to show for it like Bob McAdoo or Nate Archibald won’t sniff this list and might make the back-end of the top50. MIGHT! We’re not going off of potential. It’s the real thing.
Here’s a couple of guys that barely missed out on my list:
Rick Barry – monster scorer, possibly the best shooter ever with a good all-around offensive game but average defender, locker-room cancer and spent way too much of his prime in the ABA. He’s likely to give you 1 or 2 quality contending years but the rest of the time he’ll be undermining your team or going elsewhere to be coached by his uncle. No thanks. Sorry Rick!
Bill Walton – monster peak but his career was effectively 1.5 seasons long! He is maybe the greatest intangibles player ever (yes arguably #1!) on top of being one of the most complete bigs ever but the bottom line is, I’d rather have 10 years of say David Robinson than 1.5 of Bill Walton.
Walt Frazier – maybe the most underrated player in history. He was the engine behind those titles and he stepped up in big games for the Knicks. His prime was a little short and playing with Willis hurts his standing.
Jason Kidd – could never take games over offensively. Always an overrated player in my book, mediocre shooter, poor man’s John Stockton with a bit more board work.
Elvin Hayes – one of the best big men ever with a good long career but a locker-room cancer like Barry. Took way too many shots for most of his career, turnaround fadeaways no less! Lot of talent, little brains. If you’re looking to win titles, you wouldn’t want him.
Other HM: Dwyane Wade, Patrick Ewing, Bob Cousy, Willis Reed, George Gervin
#25 Isiah Thomas
Those who have him in their top20 are greatly overrating Thomas in my opinion but he does belong here at #25. While he did play on deep balanced Bay Boy teams where he wasn’t even the best player on the floor in many games and even series, he was the heart and soul of the team. His ability to take over a game with his scoring, his heart, his desire, his determination, his tenacity were unparalleled. Let me tell you, Celtics/Lakers/Bulls players and fans alike in the 80’s were scared of Isiah Thomas when he had the ball. The man scored 25 points in a quarter of a finals game in 88 which is the all-time record. Did I mention that he did that on a severely sprained ankle under immense pain! He was a wildly inconsistent player like most scoring guards but that is ok when there is enough talented players to take over while he’s quiet. When he went ham, it was game over 9 times out of 10 for the other team. It’s worth noting that while Isiah was definitely a score-first point guard, he was a very capable playmaker averaging 8-10 assists for most of his career. In I have a must win game, I want this guy on my team period. Perseverance and heart is what will define Isiah Lord Thomas III. The fact that he was never even a clear top10 player in the league or finished higher than 5th in MVP voting over the course of a season hurts his case for moving up further.
#24 Dirk Nowitzki
The Big German. The greatest shooting big man ever. One of the greatest players of the past decade that is still humming along. In his prime despite playing on the perimeter, Dirk could rebound very well and he’s above average defensively. Obviously his greatest strength is scoring but where he really shines is taking games over offensively, especially in the 4th quarter, and making clutch plays in the dying seconds when his teams need it most. 06 WCSF Game 7 against the Spurs last seconds of regulation and-1 that forces games into OT and leads to a Mavs win, 11 Finals Game 2 drive on Bosh and a game-winning lay-up in what was basically a must win game, 11 Finals Game 4 game-winning jumper and many more plays like that is what defines Dirk’s career. He’s a cold-blooded killer who you want in the game when it’s on the line. The reason why he cannot go higher on this list is that fact that he is a 7-footer that cannot defend the paint effectively. If I was building a franchise, I’d rather have a big that is a premier rebounder and defender than one who plays like a perimeter player. With Dirk, I need a defensive big beside him. It isn’t a coincidence the Mavs couldn’t win it all until Chandler came over! In a few years and a few more All-NBA selections and such, Dirk could squeak into the top20.
#23 David Robinson
Maybe the best all-around big man ever! Tall, super athletic… the man could do everything on the floor. One of the best scorers, rebounders, passers, defenders at the C position ever. So what stops him from being higher on the ladder? Put simply, he just wasn’t meant to be an alpha player. He couldn’t take over games in the playoffs. He outplayed Hakeem in almost all of their H2H matchups in the regular season but when they met in the 95 WCF, Hakeem humiliated him. Despite his great resume and winning 2 titles as a #2 guy to Tim Duncan, Robinson will always be remembered as someone who just didn’t have the killer instinct, who folded and let others get the spotlight when the cards were on the table. His stint in the navy and a severe injury during the 96-97 season effectively cut his prime short as well. It’s too bad. He had the talent and the playing ability of a top10 player. EASILY!
#22 Bob Pettit
Probably the most underrated player ever. 2-time MVP, 4-time all-star game MVP, 10-time All-NBA 1st Team, NBA Champion (1958). He is the only player except Wilt Chamberlain ever to beat Bill Russell in the playoffs. Russell was a bit hobbled in that finals but still… he wasn’t 100% other times and people couldn’t touch him! Bob Pettit had a spectacular finals in 1958 averaging 29 ppg in the series and his game 6 is a stuff of legend. 50 points, 25 rebounds including 19 of the last 21 points of the game for his team. He was a 26, 16, and 3 player over his 11-year career and he led his team to 3 more NBA finals which they would lose to the Celtics. He was a dominant scorer and rebounder, an above average playmaker and defender. He faced weak competition though and had a really mediocre FG% so it’s hard to have him much higher.
#21 Lebron James
Now Lebron is just 27 years old but he already has all of the credentials of an NBA legend. Three MVP’s, a Finals MVP leading one of the greatest runs ever, two other finals appearances, six 1st teams, four defensive 1st teams, 2nd all-time in PER and scoring. Arguably the best passing forward ever and a true fantasy league stud. Barring serious injury he is pretty much guaranteed to end up in what Bill Simmons calls the pantheon (top12) when it's all said and done even with no more titles. Sky is the limit for the King and he just has to continue to rack up MVP's of all types! He won his first title at a younger age than both Jordan and Shaq. As committed as he has been in the past year in improving his post-game as well as his off-ball skills, his jumper can still become more consistent to make zone defenses pay. It's amazing to have an opportunity to follow the career of such a transcendent player, arguably the most talented individual ever to grace the NBA court.
#20 Charles Barkley
The Round Mount of Rebound. Charles Barkley was a monster scorer. 65%+ TS was not unusual for him. He was a beast rebounder and he had excellent court vision averaging 4+ assists often during his prime. He was most certainly a leader and he most certainly had heart. He had unquenchable confidence, always played with a chip on his shoulder and was one of the strongest players that ever played from a mental aspect. Most players would shy away from Michael Jordan when they had to face him. Barkley would go right at him and claim pre-game and during press conferences that he is indeed the greatest player in the world. And let me tell you, he’d go out there and try to prove it every single night! Playing against Chuck, you’d never get a night off. His energy, strength, and confidence would scare his opponents. Now Chuck is almost unquestionably the GOAT TNT guy (although Shaq may take that title soon!) but he did have one major weakness in his game. DEFENSE. Barkley was listed at 6’6’’ but according to many sources as short as 6’4’’. He played PF a lot and simply was undersized. He couldn’t contest Karl Malone or Chris Webber or Kevin McHale. I have a couple of pet peeves when it comes to ranking basketball players. One is when a player displays a lack of effort (read Vince *** Carter… yea I had to mention him! ) . Another is when he’s undersized. I hate players who are liabilities on the defensive end. If I had Barkley on my team, I’d exclusively play him at SF but then he wouldn’t be in position to rebound as much which would go against his strengths! He never won a title in his career. I don’t consider it his fault because he had great intangibles but still… His longevity still has him ahead of Lebron.
#19 John Stockton
There are bad non-alpha superstars like Robinson and then there are good ones like Stockton. He exemplifies what a point guard should be all about. He is the greatest pure passer that ever lived. Now he isn’t the most talented passer ever… that title belongs to the one and only Magic Johnson but Stockton is the most effective passer in NBA history. He is #1 all-time in career and single season assists, apg, and AST%. He has the highest AST/TO ratio of any star PG in history. John was a solid scorer as well, averaging 15-18 ppg on 50+% shooting in his prime and a very good defender, making a couple of all-defensive teams and getting more steals than any player in NBA history. He often gets criticized for not taking over on offense but that wasn’t his role. He was a facilitator, not an alpha and did so with ruthless efficiency with USG% of under 20% for his career. He let others have the ball and glory but without him, those Utah teams wouldn’t be significant. He is like a role player on steroids. He knew what he had to do and did it while also pulling in more than his share on the defensive end of the floor. He had a productive 19-year career in the league, spending all of it with the Utah Jazz. Playing with Karl Malone has hurt his legacy, fairly or not.
#18 Kevin Garnett
Greatest all-around PF in NBA history. KG scored 20+ ppg in his prime year after year, he won 4 rebounding titles, he had 6 seasons over 5 apg, and he is arguably the greatest defender this game has ever seen. His versatility on that end is insane. There has never been a big that can defend the post and then move to the perimeter and cover guards chasing them around like a hound dog. His quickness, length, dexterity, and intelligence allow him to pull this off. Garnett is a model for consistency as well but his greatest asset is that he simply makes his teammates better. He came to Boston and turned them into a championship team from Day 1. His playing ability certainly helped but that wasn’t it. His energy is infectious, his swag gives his teammates confidence, his intensity and constant communication on the defensive end inspires average defenders to become great ones. He changed the culture of the team and when he was injured in the 09 playoffs, his teams still fed off his energy and did what he had inspired in them. He is a player who makes homecourt advantage really an advantage. When he bangs his head on the basket support or raises his hands into the air, fans in the arena are sent into delirium by his passion and commitment. Upon entering the game, he’s covered in sweat within 2 min. His level of effort, dedication, and pure energy has arguably never been seen in any player in history. There is probably no one that I will miss more when they retire than KG.
#17 Elgin Baylor
The original highflyer, Mr. Hangtime. Baylor turned a horizontal game into a vertical one with an array of aerial moves that transformed basketball and paved the way for players like Dr J, Michael Jordan etc. But Elgin wasn’t all flash. Before his injury in 1963, he put up 36 ppg 15 rpg and 5 apg over four postseasons. He dominated against arguably the greatest defense ever in the finals. Against Russell’s Celtics he had a series averaging 40+ppg including a 62-point game that is still an all-time finals record! He scored with the best of them, rebounded like a big, passed like a point guard. A Frank Selvy miss on a wide-open 10ft jumper as the time expired in regulation of Game 7 in the 62 Finals cost Baylor his best chance at a title. Elgin made 10 All-NBA 1st Teams in his career and 8 NBA finals, losing all but 1 to the Boston Celtics! If it weren’t for his prime cut short by injuries, average defensive impact, and a lack of titles, Baylor could have made a significantly bigger dent on this list. His abilities were truly extraordinary.
#16 Oscar Robertson
Big O. Mr Triple Double. Oscar Robertson is the standard by which any all-around basketball player is judged. Over his first 5 seasons in the league, he averaged a 30-10-10 triple double scoring at higher efficiency than most C’s in the league! High pace or not, that’s still ludicrous. Big O was 6’5’’ but he rebounded like a forward and getting assists was more difficult in Oscar’s era due to how they were credited, making his feat even more impressive. He was yet another victim of the mighty Celtics dynasty, never managing to win a title with the Cincinnati Royals. He was thought of a little bit as a selfish player at times, dominating the ball and putting up good numbers but never winning. His playoff performances also frequently hadn’t lived up to the expectations. In 1970, he got traded to the Bucks where he won a title. After the first year success in Milwaukee, he couldn’t stay healthy but Bucks’ contention for the title was largely a result of Oscar’s declining but still very noticeable presence. Winning an MVP award and a title even if not as a #1 option puts Oscar ahead of Baylor for me.
#15 Jerry West
The Logo is the single hardest player to rank on this list. On one hand, he was a monster scorer and shooter, great all-around, solid defender, super-clutch and a great playoff performer. On the other hand, a perennial 2nd place finisher, a guy who wasn’t any of those good things in one postseason run that mattered most. In 1972, Lakers finally won a championship on arguably the greatest team in history. Problem is West had the worst postseason in his career by far, putting up just 23ppg on 38% shooting in the playoffs and 20 ppg on 33% shooting in the finals. Those are not typos! When Lakers lost like in 66, 68, 69, 70, West put up monster numbers and was always efficient. That puts forward this question… There is absolutely no doubt that West was a great player with basically no weaknesses but was he as valuable to his team? If his teams can lose with him playing out of his mind and win in a dominating fashion with him playing god awful, there is something wrong! As his career went on, he switched into more of a PG role and his team success increased. Maybe he was meant to be a more of a facilitator? Maybe his scoring hurt his team as a whole offensively? West retired with no MVP award even though he was the best player in the world a couple of years there in 1969 and 1970. In 1971 with West (as well as Baylor) sidelined in the postseason, Lakers still made the conference finals and lost to one of the greatest teams of all time featuring Kareem and Oscar. There is no doubt that Jerry West had the mentality of a champion and the drive and unquenchable thirst for success, but the question of his real value to the team will always haunt him most in my opinion.
#14 John Havlicek
Most underappreciated player in history. Drafted to play in the NFL as well as the NBA, the man known as Hondo chose basketball and boy was it a good choice. His physical attributes were astounding. While he wasn’t a high leaper, he was extremely quick, very strong, and probably the most durable player ever. His stamina was unmatched. He would run opponents into the ground with his relentless running game and constant full court pressure that frustrated opponents. He was a great versatile scorer, excellent rebounder and passer, arguably the best perimeter defender ever and yet none of those is his most defining quality. Havlicek has more rings that any player on this list not called Bill Russell. He was a true winner and maybe the most clutch player in history. The 1965 steal against Hal Greer, 40 10 and 7 on 50% shooting in Game 6 to close out LA on the road in the 68 finals, 26 9 and 5 game on 58% shooting in Game 7 on the road to beat LA in the 69 finals, him and Kareem going back and forth late in games in the 74 finals, the shot in 2nd overtime against the Suns in the 76 finals. These are moments that define Havlicek, playing at his best in the greatest moments. In his prime from 68-74, he averaged a stellar 27 8 and 7 in the postseason and similar numbers in the finals with All-Defensive 1st Team selections virtually ever year. Few people realize that he won 3 championship rings (68, 69, 74) as the best player on his team. Despite that, he’s a player who would sacrifice his own personal success for the betterment of his team. He played as a 6th man for the first couple of years in the mid 60’s and deferred to Cowens and White in the late 70’s as his game declined. Missing on his resume is an MVP award and that he was never the #1 best player in the league. I can’t put him any higher because he wasn’t a consistently efficient scorer either who you can count on to carry your team on offense every night in a long season.
#13 Julius Erving
Enigmatic player. Julius “Dr J” Erving revolutionized the game like perhaps no other player. The tomahawk dunks, acrobatic lay-ups from behind the backboard and out of bounds are some of the signature moments that define the Doctor. I had a lot of trouble deciding whether to put him ahead of West and Havlicek. I decided to go with Erving ahead of them. While Julius won a title as a #2 to Moses in 83 similar to how Jerry did to Wilt in the 72 postseason, Julius played well during the run. Erving’s value to his teams was much more clear to me. Erving won an MVP award in 1981 (something West and Hondo never did) and lost to 3 teams in the finals with dominant big men (Walton once, Kareem twice) that his Sixers simply had no answer for. Erving has a more dominant peak than Hondo and more impressive career longevity than West as well tallying 30k points in his career. I also rated him ahead of West because I feel like he was more impactful on the defensive end because of his off-ball skill and shotblocking. Erving is stuck here and cannot move any higher because his best years were in the ABA, a league where high-paced offensive basketball was played and it was far easier to put up big numbers. When he came to the NBA at age 26, Julius was never quite as dominant as before and did win just one title as a 2nd option.
#12 Karl Malone
The Mailman. A name that suits him well because of his remarkable consistency and longevity but is also ironic because Malone could never deliver at those precise moments when his teams absolutely needed it. Karl Malone was a great all-around force in the NBA at the PF position from the late 80’s to the early 00’s, winning 2 MVP’s and losing twice in the championship round to Jordan-led Chicago Bulls. Malone didn’t lack intangibles per se but he could have used more killer instinct and leadership. His career also came to be defined by some of his most painful moments, missing 2 free throws that could win the game in Game 1 of the 97 finals and getting stripped by Jordan for that infamous shot in Game 6 of the 98 finals. On the other hand, Malone doesn’t get nearly enough credit for all his successes. Getting those Utah teams to the finals in the first place with declining John Stockton wasn’t trivial. Luck of the draw was truly against Karl… MJ is the last guy you would want to face in the finals and he is the only one Malone ever faced! He had no weaknesses in his game and generally performed well in the postseason against a tough group of elite big men. Malone is #2 on the all-time scoring list, #6 on the all-time rebounding list, and #1 in all-time FT’s made and attempted. His body of work is undeniable.
#11 Moses Malone
Another Malone! All-around player? No… in fact he had arguably the most weaknesses in his game of any player on this list. His post moves were rudimentary at best, he was a solid but hardly spectacular defender, and he wasn’t a good passer when compared to other elite bigs. So what the heck did he do well? Two words… OFFENSIVE REBOUNDING. THAT’S IT!! His team would shoot and he’d grab the misses. Sounds like a rebounding specialist… However when you combine his ability to sneak or push himself out of a box out to gain position for the rebound with his incredible strength and physicality, you had one of the greatest forces in history. He would get the ball at point blank range off of a rebound and the defense would be helpless. They would foul him and he’d shoot FT’s again and again. Moses was at his peak from 79-83, winning 3 MVP’s and a title on one of the most dominant teams ever. He made a finals in 81 with a truly mediocre 40-win team. His teammates loved playing with Moses. He was a guy who you didn’t have to feed the ball… he’d get it himself! I’ve watched footages of a playoff half where he would get 20 points, all of them off of offensive boards. His peak is one of the greatest ever but he also played in the NBA for 19 years and another 2 in the ABA. He was one of the first high schoolers ever to enter the league. He is #1 all-time in offensive rebounds by a huge margin, #3 all-time in total rebounds, and #2 In FT’s made. Bottom line is, I love Karl Malone who is a more complete player but if I had to pick which Malone I want on my team, Moses takes the cake. He was more difficult to stop at his peak and managed to win a title in an era that was tougher than the 90’s. He had the it factor, the killer instinct, the alpha male mentality that David Robinson and even Karl Malone never had.
#10 Kobe Bryant
I’ve always been called a Kobe hater but that couldn’t be further from the truth. I love Kobe’s game and appreciate his status as an all-time great. I only have an issue when people claim Kobe > Jordan. That will never be a real debate despite Bryant’s impressive resume. 5 titles of which 2 as the man, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, an 81 point game, 62 in three quarters game. Kobe is one of the most devastating scorers ever unleashed on this league. He is arguably the most skilled player of all-time, more so than MJ. Kobe can make shots from anywhere and with insane degrees of difficulty. He could drive to the rim, rebound, pass, play elite defense, close out games. He has an insatiable killer instinct… there is a reason they call this man the Black Mamba! Turnaround fadeaway 20 footers are miracle shots for anyone else but when Kobe is hot, he nails them. Ironically, what is his strength is also the cause of his greatest weakness. His ability to hit any shot makes him take too many difficult shots on a regular basis, lowering his FG%. His choppy finals performances characterized by poor FG%’s are why it is difficult to consider him any higher. Being a sidekick to Shaq for 3/5 titles is also a dent in his resume. If he has a couple of more strong years, I might be willing to push him to #9.
#9 Tim Duncan
The Big Fundamental. While not an unstoppable offensive force by any stretch of imagination, Duncan always took over when it mattered. He was a great rebounder, a world-class defender (total crime he never won a DPOY!), and a marvelous passer for a big man. His leadership by example and his quiet confidence make him the most well-liked player of this era. The reason I have him slightly ahead of Bryant is that while he also had some choppy finals performances, he still won 4 titles as the best player on his team and won 2 MVP awards. He to me is a smarter player with regards to shot selection and generally picking his spots. Timmy would never refuse to pass the ball. Why do people call Tim Duncan boring? He isn’t flashy but he’s always been effective. He was never the most dominant player, but he was the player that had the last laugh more often than not. His expression-less face confused opponents. It was hard to get in his head, focused like a laser beam, a champion playing for one goal. The privilege of remaining one. Duncan has been a unique superstar in the decade. With many stars bent on individual dominance, Duncan ALWAYS put team first. The Big Fundamental truly stands for everything that is good in basketball – teamwork, unselfishness, desire, humbleness, and graciousness in those rare defeats.
#8 Wilt Chamberlain
Wilt the Stilt. The Big Dipper. The man who rewrote the record books, setting countless scoring and rebounding records that will never be broken. A guy who was so strong, so athletic, so physically coordinated that none of his adversaries had any hope of playing him to a standstill individually. That description sounds like a description for the GOAT, doesn’t it? Well unfortunately, Wilt is far from receiving that kind of honor… For almost his entire career, he played solely for stats and personal glory by winning individual match-ups. Winning was secondary to him and winning 2 titles is a testament to his greatness that he could win despite his shortcomings but he still severely underachieved. He set his mind to never fouling out of a game, refusing to play defense when in foul trouble and hurting his team in who knows how many games. He passed up easy shots just so he could win an assist title. He would either shoot too much early in his career taking his teammates out of their comfort zones or too little in his late career, not taking over in big playoff games when his teams needed it and he could clearly still provide it. His playoff numbers can’t hold a candle to his regular season. If all that wasn’t enough, Wilt was a notoriously bad FT shooter. For all of his regular season heroics and dominance, I can’t put him above any player from here on out because he didn’t deliver consistently enough when it mattered.
#7 Hakeem Olajuwon
Hakeem the Dream. A super strong and athletic yet gracious big man of truly unmatchable skills. Olajuwon’s footwork and offensive repertoire is legendary… the spins, the turns, the up and unders, the head and the shoulder fakes… He’d execute multiple moves and countermoves leaving opponents including HOF defenders dumbfounded. He could go up with power dunks, hit baby hooks, or nail 15-foot jumpers like it’s nothing. Ask David Robinson. If that wasn’t enough, Hakeem won 2 rebounding titles, was a great passer, and arguably the best defensive player ever. And even that doesn’t come close to describing the Dream. He had the dexterity and speed of a guard. He is #8 all-time in steals and could run the fast break! He was a clutch player who would score big baskets late in games and protect the paint with vigor. He led two of the most difficult title runs ever. One with a truly meager supporting cast and another without HCA in every single series. In those 2 playoff runs, he infamously dominated all the other top big men in the league in devastating fashion leaving behind nothing but rubble. We’ll never know if Hakeem was lucky to not face Jordan in the postseason or vice versa. Probably a little bit of both…
#6 Larry Bird
Larry Legend. The Hick from French Lick. A guy who didn’t even look like an NBA megastar was nothing but. There is absolutely no excuse to say you’ve never watched Bird. You have to see it to believe his real impact. Larry wasn’t athletic, he wasn’t that strong, he wasn’t that quick… but he was smart. Bird is the greatest trash-talker and maybe the most confident player ever and his leadership rubbed on his teammates. It didn’t hurt that he was the greatest shooter ever with unlimited range, could rebound like a big, and pass like a point guard. Larry was an excellent off-ball defender that fit well into a team concept of defense. Larry won 3 titles and 3 MVP’s in the toughest era in league history. His prime was unfortunately relatively short, his career cut prematurely by severe back injuries. He played a couple of more years but was never really quite the same.
#5 Shaquille O’Neal
Superman. The Big Aristotle. The league had never seen a player like Shaq before or since. The 7’1’’ 320-350 pound beast dominated the NBA for a decade and a half. His athleticism, speed, and vertical for a man of his size were simply unbelievable. The NBA had to get stronger rims and opposing centers started wearing masks and nose guards largely because of this guy. O’Neal struggled as a FT shooter so it was risky to keep him in late in a game and he was a poor pick n’ roll defender but it didn’t matter too much in the big scheme of things. Shaq’s peak is quite simply probably the greatest ever. From 00-02, he led LA to a 3-peat averaging 36 ppg and 13 rpg on 59% shooting in 3 NBA finals combined! There has never been a player more unstoppable than him… EVER. He made guys like Zo, Robinson, Divac, Mutombo, elite defensive bigs, look helpless. He was a Wilt Chamberlain who played a power game, who’d never back down, who had the desire to win and not put up stats as a way to prove himself. It was tough to put him over Bird but I’d rather have 13 prime years of Shaq than 5 prime years of Bird. True he had a big ego and he might leave my team after clashing with our star SG but it’s worth the risk. He stays for a couple of years and I’m almost guaranteed a title even with a fairly average roster.
#4 Earvin Johnson
Magic. The guy who made Showtime. The greatest point guard who ever lived. 6’9’’ Johnson was a handful, a walking triple double. An underrated scorer who in his prime consistently scored 22-25 ppg on 60%+ TS. He had the greatest court vision of any player ever. He would run half-court sets as well as the fast break to perfection. No look passes, behind the back passes, half court bounce passes… it was all there. Most importantly, his style wasn’t just fun, it was successful. He won 5 titles and made 9 finals in 13 years in the league in the strongest era in league history. Magic would always come through in a big game, arguably the most consistent playoff performer ever. He beat Bird three of out of the four times they met over their careers and had a longer prime. Magic vs Shaq is close but Johnson simply has less weaknesses. Magic could close games, Shaq could not. Magic was the ultimate teammate, Shaq was egotistical. Magic won 5 titles and 3 MVP’s. Shaq won 4 titles and 1 MVP. Magic won in a tough era. Shaq won in a watered-down era.
#3 Bill Russell
William Felton Russell was traded on draft day for Cliff Hagan and Ed McCauley. How often does a team give up a perennial all-star shooting guard and a top center for a player who hasn't played a single game in the NBA? The answer is when that player has such superior understanding of the game and locker room leadership that what he physically does on the court becomes less important. Of course, Russell was the greatest defensive anchor of all time, leading at least 9 Celtics teams (11 total) to a title and winning 5 MVP's until Hondo took reign of the team in the late 60's. Bill Russell is quite simply the greatest winner in the history of the NBA and maybe any sport period. The reason I don’t have him higher on this list is because he had clear weaknesses in the grand scheme of things. First of all, he was a mediocre scorer, 16 ppg on 43% shooting for his playoff career. He passed very well and was one of the best rebounders of all time but he couldn’t shoulder an offensive load for his team. He could ignite breaks off of defensive rebounds but his success is a product of his era and his team to a fairly large extent. A 6’9’’ center as late as the 70’s just wouldn’t be able to have such an impact. The late 50’s and most of the 60’s were not an era of parity. Boston won the most games in the league from 57-65 and had the most talented teams in that span. As great a leader and motivator Bill was (he was even a player coach from 66-67 season onwards), it cannot bridge the gap with much more talented players ahead who also had monstrous achievements in more competitive eras.
#2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Originally known as Lew Alcindor, Kareem is the most accomplished player in league history – 6 MVP’s, 2 Finals MVP’s (should have been 4!), 6 titles, 10 finals appearances, #1 on all-time scoring list, #3 on all-time rebounding list, #2 on all-time blocks list (despite the fact blocks weren’t even recorded his first 4 years!). Kareem is one of a type big man. The greatest scorer in history, an elite rebounder, an elite defender and shotblocker. Kareem passed the ball like a guard, had the agility to get more steals than any big ever except Hakeem. Jabbar learned from the greatest leader ever in Bill Russell. His quiet confidence would rally his team, his clutch heroics and game-winning shots are unmatched for a big man. Kareem’s skyhook is quite simply the best shot in history. It was the surest 2 points ever. You couldn’t block it, you couldn’t contest, you could hope that he misses but he rarely would. Kareem’s peak was on Shaq’s level except he didn’t have a problem with his FT shooting. His longevity is the greatest ever. He made 1st team all NBA at age 22 and then again at age 39. At 40 years and older, his team would still give him the ball when they needed a basket in a close game and he would deliver. His legacy as a good teammate is probably the most underrated aspect of his career. Kareem would sacrifice everything to win, even through the mid and late 70’s when he had truly mediocre rosters.
#1 Michael Jordan
Jordan is not a better player than Kareem, or more accomplished, or more impactful. If I was drafting one of them as a franchise player, I would take Jabbar. But Jordan is still the greatest ever. Media hype or not, Jordan is the household name in the world of basketball. He inspired and motivated kids to play basketball, he is the reason this forum exists. I probably wouldn’t be writing this article if MJ had never played because I wouldn’t care about the sport. He did everything on the court on an elite level, he showed up in big moments, his killer instinct was almost madness. Even those who weren’t alive in his time have heard of his exploits, the free throw line dunk, the shot over Ehlo, the Flu Game, the Last Shot. His number was retired by NBA teams for whom he had never played. He is the all-time leader in playoff points, PER, and Win Shares.
Posted by Djoker on 21 July 2011 - 02:02 PM
I have never written a sports article this long and it may be my last one. It took quite a bit of time to dig out some of these numbers (some I just came across at RealGM, marge, and a bunch of other NBA History websites that truly have a wealth of information available!).
This article will argue why Kareem Abdul-Jabbar can be easily considered the greatest basketball player of all time ahead of Michael Jordan. The article will discuss the following aspects of Kareem's career:
1) Statistical comparison in prime
2) Defensive impact
7) Perception of Kareem
8) Quotes on Kareem
1. Statistical Comparison In Prime – MJ vs. Kareem
We will disregard Mike’s Wizards days here as well as Kareem’s play from the 1981-1982 season onwards where he was 34 years or older. Note that Mike in 1997-1998 was 34 years old but he left basketball for almost 2 entire seasons. Both Kareem and Mike had played 12 years to these respective points (1981 and 1998, respectively) and their rookie years were comparable so it’s an excellent place to begin the comparison. Note that blocks and steals weren’t recorded prior to the 1973-1974 season so Kareem’s numbers there are probably underestimated.
Regular Season Numbers:
Kareem: 28.1 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 3.4 bpg on 55.6% FG and 58.9% TS
Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg on 50.5% FG and 58.0% TS
It’s pretty even. Kareem is slightly more efficient and rebounds and blocks a lot more shots. MJ scores more in volume and has a slight advantage in passing and a larger one in steals. It’s worth noting that Kareem’s USG% for the period is ~24% while MJ’s is around ~34%.
Kareem: 30.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.2 spg, 3.4 bpg on 53.3% FG and 56.9% TS
Jordan: 33.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg on 48.7% FG and 56.8% TS
Stars are born in the playoffs! Same situation as with season numbers. It can go either way! Once again, MJ has a USG% disadvantage with ~36% vs. ~26% for Kareem.
Kareem: 31.4 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 4.1 apg, 0.9 spg, 3.2 bpg on 54.8% FG and 57.7% TS
Jordan: 33.6 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 48.1% FG and 55.9% TS
Once again very close to identical.
Overall, the two men were very even scoring-wise but Kareem had a much larger advantage in rebounding and blocks than MJ did in assists and steals. KAJ also handled the ball much much less than Jordan.
Did Jordan do better against the toughest competition? Let’s look at MJ’s playoff numbers against the Bad Boy Pistons, early 90’s Knicks, and Payton-Kemp Sonics, the 3 toughest defensive teams MJ faced:
1988 R2 - 27.4 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 4.6 apg on 49% FG 55% TS
1989 CF – 29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 6.5 apg on 46% FG 56% TS
1990 CF – 32.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 6.3 apg on 47% FG 56% TS
1991 CF – 29.8 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 7.0 apg on 53% FG 61% TS
1991 R1 - 29.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 6.0 apg on 52% FG 60% TS
1992 R2 - 31.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.3 apg on 48% FG 53% TS
1993 CF - 32.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 7.0 apg on 40% FG 51% TS
1996 F - 27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg on 41% FG 53% TS
MJ still played very well but did struggle efficiency-wise especially against the Knicks in 1992 and 1993 and Sonics in 1996. His volume numbers were also lower against these 3 teams compared to his general playoff averages above.
Here are Kareem’s numbers (that I could obtain!) against the greatest defensive teams from his era. Numbers against Thurmond’s Warriors are incomplete.
1970 DF – 34.2 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 4.8 apg on 55% FG 63% TS
1971 DF – 25.0 ppg, 17.2 rpg, 4.2 apg on 48% FG 51% TS
1972 DF – 33.7 ppg, 17.5 rpg, 4.8 apg on 46% FG 49% TS
1974 DF – 30.0 ppg, 18.0 rpg, 5.0 apg on 57% FG 57% TS
1971 F – 27.0 ppg, 18.5 rpg, 2.8 apg on 60% FG 63% TS (mostly blowouts so Kareem played few min)
1974 F - 32.6ppg, 12.1 rpg, and 5.4 apg on 52% FG 56% TS
1971 R1 – 29.0 ppg, 15.6 rpg on 49% FG 53% TS
1972 R1 - 22.8 ppg, 18.4 rpg, 5.4 apg on 41% FG 43% TS
1973 R1 – 22.8 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg on 43% FG 45% TS
Kareem had his struggles against Thurmond’s Warriors but generally got his own against tough defenses. It really seems like a push to me.
2. Defensive Impact
Both Kareem and MJ played on some all-time great defensive teams but in terms of who had more impact on that end, Kareem wins in a landslide. Kareem is a center and anchored a team’s defense in a way a perimeter player like MJ never can. He was intimidating in the paint, blocking tons of shots. Kareem is #3 all-time in regular season blocked shots and #1 all-time in playoff blocked shots. And that's without blocks being recorded in the first four years of his career that were his statistical prime. Jabbar is also a far-superior rebounder to Jordan which is no surprise.
Kareem’s Bucks led the NBA in opponent FG% for 4 straight years from the 1970-1971 season up to the 1973-1974 season, posting numbers of 42.4%, 42.0%, 42.2%, and 42.5%, respectively. The 42.0% is an all-time NBA record. Those Bucks teams had no all-team defenders apart from Kareem.
In terms of career all-defensive selections, Kareem trails only Duncan with 11 total selections. Had there been a DPOY of the year award in the 70’s, Kareem would have won a couple considering how many times he anchored the best defensive teams in his era.
Jordan and Kareem were both undisputed best players in the league for about 10 years. Kareem led the league in PER and WS 9 times each. MJ led the league in PER 7 times and WS 9 times. However, after those 12 years is where Kareem really separates himself. Jordan goes on to play 2 more unspectacular seasons with the Wizards while Kareem is a top5 player in the league for 5 more seasons after 1980-1981. He won a Finals MVP at age 38 and made 1st Team All-NBA at age 39. He leads his team to 4 more Finals and 2 more titles in this 5-year span as the leading scorer on the Showtime Lakers. Kareem has the best longevity of any career in NBA history and scored the greatest number of points. Only Karl Malone can approach his span of dominance.
6× NBA Champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987–1988)
10x NBA Finalist (1971, 1974, 1980, 1982-1985, 1987-1989)
6× NBA Most Valuable Player (1971–1972, 1974, 1976–1977, 1980)
19× NBA All-Star (1970–1977, 1979–1989)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
10× All-NBA First Team (1971–1974, 1976–1977, 1980–1981, 1984, 1986)
5× All-NBA Second Team (1970, 1978–1979, 1983, 1985)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1974–1975, 1979–1981)
6× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1970–1971, 1976–1978, 1984)
2x Scoring Titles (1971, 1972)
2x Rebounding Titles (1976, 1977)
4x Blocks Titles (1975, 1976, 1979, 1980)
1x FG% Title (1977)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1970)
3× NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1967–1969)
Naismith College Player of the Year (1969)
2× USBWA College Player of the Year (1967–1968)
6× NBA Champion (1991-1993, 1996-1998)
6x NBA Finalist (1991-1993, 1996-1998)
5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991-1992, 1996, 1998)
14× NBA All-Star (1970–1977, 1979–1989)
6× NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998)
1x Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
10× All-NBA First Team (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
1× All-NBA Second Team (1985)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
10x Scoring Titles (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
3x Steals Titles (1988, 1990, 1993)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
2x Olympic Gold Medalist (1984, 1992)
1× NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1982)
Naismith College Player of the Year (1984)
Kareem has a notable advantage in the number of regular season MVP’s, NBA Finals appearances, and all-star and all-NBA team selections. He also had what is widely appreciated as the best NCAA career of all-time. MJ has a very significant lead in Finals MVP awards and a DPOY which I want to discuss here.
Kareem was literally robbed of a Finals MVP award and denied another two through no fault of his own.
In the 1980 Finals, Magic Johnson got the award based only on his legendary Game 6 performance. Kareem carried the team through the series up to that point and averaged 33.4 ppg, 13.6 rpg, and 3.2 apg on 55% shooting and 58% TS while also registering 4.6 bpg. He was ROBBED!
Jerry West got the 1969 Finals MVP for being the best player on the court. Same should have happened with Kareem in the 1974 Finals where he put up by far the best numbers of anyone (32.6ppg, 12.1 rpg, and 5.4 apg on 52% shooting and 56% TS) and basically made 2 clutch plays to force OT in Game 2 (block on Cowens in the dying seconds) and win Game 6 (game-winning 17-foot skyhook over Cowens with 2 seconds left). If there was ever an argument for a losing player to win this award, this was it right here.
Finally, Kareem was the best player in the 1982 Finals on a very balanced Lakers team (Magic, Nixon, McAdoo…) but was inadvertently denied the MVP by his coach. In Game 3 and Game 5 which were blow-outs by LA and Philly, Kareem played limited minutes and took 12 and 6 shots respectively while other Lakers stars were left out on the floor. Magic ended up winning the MVP but any player could have won it.
Thus, Kareem did win 2 Finals MVP’s but should have won at least 3 and easily could have won 5 with the numbers he put up. MJ has an advantage here but it’s a minor one. The DPOY award wasn’t given prior to the 1982-1983 season. Had it been, given that Kareem led the best defense in the league for 4 straight years while in Milwaukee, he would have won a couple of these awards.
5. Level of Competition
Kareem faced much stiffer competition in the playoffs at both his position and in general than Jordan did. At SG, the best player MJ faced is Drexler and then there is a huge drop-off with guys like Dumars, Moncrief, and Ainge. Kareem faced all-time great 2-way centers like Wilt, Thurmond, Reed, Lanier, McAdoo, Walton, Gilmore, Moses, Hayes, Cowens etc. When you take into account that the league had fewer teams in the 70’s than in the 90’s, Kareem faced much tougher adversaries on a night to night basis.
In terms of the overall level of competition in their primes, MJ faced 3 top 20 players ever in the playoffs. One was Magic who was clearly on decline and whose team was decimated by injuries in the 1991 Finals. The other is Malone who had a much less talented team than Jordan. Stockton in 1998 was not much better than Kidd is right now. The final one is Shaq who actually beat MJ’s Bulls once in 1995. Other notables Jordan faced were Ewing, Barkley, Drexler and Thomas. Kareem faced older Wilt, West, Baylor, Thurmond, Barry, Reed, Frazier, Walton, Cowens, Havlicek, Hayes, Unseld, Erving, Moses, Sikma etc. Wilt (albeit past his prime), West, Baylor, Havlicek, Moses, and Erving are all top20 players.
Kareem transformed a 27 win Bucks team into a 56 win team in his rookie season and lost to the eventual champion Knicks despite outplaying Willis Reed by a large margin. In his sophomore season, far past his prime but still effective Oscar Robertson came to the Bucks and Milwaukee won 66 games and a title going 12-2 in the playoffs behind Jabbar.
Then, in the 1972 season, Jabbar again led the Bucks to 63 wins behind only what many consider the GOAT team of all time in the 1972 Lakers. Kareem put up monster numbers and despite popular belief destroyed Wilt in 5/6 games of the Lakers series putting up 35 18 and 5 on 46% FG/ 53% TS and holding Wilt to 37% FG shooting. However, 2nd option Oscar was injured in the series and couldn’t even put up 10 and 5. Role players McGlocklin and Jones played in the series but were greatly limited. The series was also controversial. Late In a close game in Game 6, Kareem blocked a shot which went off of West but hit the referee, preventing it from going out of bounds. The ball was given to LA. Kareem gave arguably the GOAT team of all time a run for their money all by himself.
After the 1973 season which saw the greatest disappointment in Kareem’s career where he was outplayed by Nate Thurmond (the only time in his prime anyone outplayed him!), Kareem again led the Bucks to the best record in the league in 1974 but Lucious Allen and Oscar were injured and the former didn’t play in the playoffs. Bucks still made quick work of LA and Chicago before facing Boston in the Finals. Kareem had a monster series against the Celtics (see above) but lost to them in a controversial Game 7. Cowens got his 5th foul at the beginning of the 4th quarter in Game 7 with a 3-point lead for Boston. However, referees allowed him to get away with a LOT OF HARD CONTACT down the stretch without fouling out and Boston squeaked by with a win. I watched this entire game and the officiating in the 4th quarter of this game was very much in favor of the Celtics. There are no ifs, ands and buts about it. Coincidence? Perhaps… but is still happened!
In the 1977 series against Walton’s Blazers, Kareem outplayed Bill by a wide margin (30.3 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.8 bpg, 61 FG% vs. 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg, 51 FG%) but Lakers simply didn’t have enough guard play as both Kermit Washington and Lucious Allen didn’t play due to injury. Blazers’ guards embarrassed the Lakers as their backups couldn’t even get the ball across halfcourt in the face of full-court press late in games.
Finally, Kareem was the best player in the 1984 Finals but Magic made crucial mistakes throughout the series (“Tragic Magic”) and the Celtics beat the Lakers in Game 7 to take the title.
KAJ is probably the most unlucky player of all time and had a lot of breaks go against him. With more luck on his side, he could have challenged Russell’s 11 titles.
7. Perception of Kareem
History has not been kind on Kareem for many reasons. First, he played in an era where racial stereotypes were still common place. A black guy who converted to Islam and was the most dominant player in the league… it really is no surprise he wasn’t well liked back then. It is well documented that his matchups with Havlicek, Cowens, and Walton were always portrayed by the media as “good” vs. “evil” with Kareem being the latter. What makes things worse and which Kareem himself acknowledged is that during his early playing career, he was very aloof and rarely responsive to the media which brought him a lot of additional scorn from them. Playing with a charismatic personality that was Magic later in his career helped him become very well liked by the time he retired in 1989.
8. Quotes on Kareem
Bill Walton: "I lived to play against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He was the greatest player I ever played against, by far. Better than Jordan. Better than Magic. better than Bird. Better than Dr. J. Better than the best of the best that I played against. Better than Rick Barry. He was my source of motivation for everything I ever did. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal. "
Jerry West: "We had two writers in L.A. that were killing him in the newspaper that should have been fired. It was unfounded bias. People expected more than he was doing. It was never enough. Those (Lakers) teams in the late 70s would have been lucky to win 20 games without him. Yet we were always in the playoffs. We just didn't have enough pieces."
Wilt Chamberlain: “I really needed help to guard Kareem. He is the only guy. "
Pat Riley: "Why judge anymore? When a man has broken records, won championships, endured tremendous criticism and responsibility, why judge? Let's toast him as the greatest player ever."
Nate Thurmond: “The first time Kareem came to the West Coast, he was playing against Wilt in Los Angeles the night before playing us in San Francisco. I needed an advantage. So I flew down and watched that game. I could see the moves he did against Wilt and what he liked to do best.
Larry Bird: Kareem was probably, with his size and his skyhook, the most dominating force in our league as far as getting a basket any time you want it."
Julius Erving: “Bill Russell is the greatest champion but Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest player in the history of the game.”
Kareem vs Jordan
Offensive Play – EVEN
Defensive Play – EDGE KAREEM
Longevity – EDGE KAREEM
Accomplishments – EVEN
Competition – EDGE KAREEM
Who else scored 38 000 career points?
Who else played in the league for 20 seasons? (and made the All-Star team in all of them!)
Who else won 6 MVP's?
Who else played in 10 NBA Finals?
Who else anchored the best defenses in the history of the league?
Who else faced six top20 players in the playoffs in his prime?
Who else led a team to a championship in his 2nd year in the league?
Jordan didn't do any of those... Do you still believe MJ is definitely the GOAT?
Posted by Swish on 05 July 2012 - 12:51 PM
Posted by TeoTheGreek13 on 07 March 2012 - 11:27 AM
Posted by Clutch™ on 30 September 2012 - 05:17 PM
It all began on May 19, 1976 in a small town called Greenville, South Carolina. That is the birthplace of NBA legend, Kevin Maurice Garnett. Garnett moved from his hometown of Greenville, South Carolina, to Chicago, Illinois, due to racism. In Chicago, Kevin played for Farragut Career Academy, and instantly shined. He led them to a 28-2 record, averaging 25.2 points, 17.9 rebounds, 6.7 assists and 6.5 blocks, and shot 67% from the field. Due to this amazing stat line, he won the National Player of the Year award, and was named the Most Outstanding Player at the McDonald's All-American Game. After high school, Garnett declared for the 1995 NBA draft. There, he was selected 5th overall by the Minnesota Timberwolves.
Since he first entered the league, Garnett has been a dominant force in the NBA. In his rookie season, he averaged 10 points, seven rebounds, two assists, one steal, and almost two blocks. The next year, he improved by a great amount, averaging 17 points, eight rebounds, three assists, and two blocks. That year was his first NBA all-star game appearance of many. After his first all star game appearance, he ended up visiting 13 other all star games, 14 in total. In 2003, he even won the All-Star MVP award. In 2004, he had an outstanding year. He averaged 24.2 points per game, 13.9 rebounds per game, five assists per game, 1.5 steals per game, and 2.2 blocks per game. He led the league in rebounds and win shares, with an impressive 18.3. Another category he shined in that year was defensive win shares. He had eight defensive win shares. That is a very high mark. This impressive stat line allowed Kevin Garnett to snatch NBA MVP. This was his first and only MVP award he won in his career, but he has many, many other remarkable seasons. In the 2004 Playoffs, Garnett led the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Western Conference Finals, but unfortunately they fell short to the Los Angeles Lakers in six games.
In 2008, Garnett was traded to the Boston Celtics in exchange for seven players, which includes Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, and Sebastian Telfair, which is the most players traded for a single player in NBA history. With the additions of Hall of Famers Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett, the Celtics had formed a dominant trio of superstars. The Celtics’ big three consisted of three future hall of famers, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Kevin Garnett. The three dominated games, all averaging over 17 points per game. Garnett had a very impressive year in 2007-2008, and his defense is what really stood out. He averaged 1.9 blocks per game, 1.4 steals per game, and had a defensive win shares of 6.2. He also led the entire NBA with a 92 Defensive Rating. Defensive rating is an estimate of how many points allowed per 100 possessions.
KG is known for his high intensity and love for the game. You can see the look in his eyes when he plays, and just tell he has a burning love and passion for the game of basketball. Every loose ball, every rebound, every time the ball is heading out of bounds, Garnett is hustling everywhere on the court. He brings such intensity to the game, which makes him a very fun player to watch. He is always trash talking, celebrating, pumping his fist, banging his chest, screaming, ect. He is considered “mean” by opponents, because of his ruthless trash-talking. But that is just the way KG has always played. KG is the most intense player to ever play basketball, and that is one of the biggest reasons why he will forever be remembered in this league.
The Big Ticket, in my opinion, is the second best power forward to ever play NBA basketball, behind the great Tim Duncan. Many consider him to be number three behind Tim Duncan and Karl Malone, but I think Garnett is the better player. Kevin Garnett has averaged more rebounds per game, assists per game, has a better Defensive Rating, has more blocks per game, has much less turnovers per game, more rebounds per game in his playoffs career, more assists per game in his post season career, also more total career blocks, in less seasons played. Garnett definitely has the upper hand in defense, and passing. Garnett is also a slightly better rebounder. But, there is no denying that Malone is the better offensive player. Plus, Malone never carried his team to a championship. Garnett has. In 2008, Garnett carried the Celtics during the playoffs and into the finals. His defense, clutch plays, passing, and intensity were too much for the competition in 2008.
Posted by Tony Hoops on 13 April 2013 - 05:44 PM
Hoops-Nation.com has reached a new milestone! We've now surpassed one million posts on the forum!
Gotta say, I really love this community. Wasn't expecting anything this amazing when I originally put the forums together. Couldn't ask for greater people to be apart of the Hoops-Nation!
Posted by Rog on 03 August 2012 - 08:41 PM
Instead of making a complex rulebook with a bunch of things I know no one will read, I decided to make it very simple.
- All mods, whether their name is purple, blue, or red, have the ability to step into a situation that they feel deserves attention, in ANY forum, with ANY member, regardless of whether or not it is their section to mod. Its that simple.
- From now on, if any moderator has to step in and asks something to happen(I.E. to stop fighting), do it. If you feel that mod was out of line, simply PM me, Penny, or Tony or any other admin at the time this happens, and we will sort out what we need to sort out.
- If a member is seen arguing with or disrespecting a moderator, once again regardless of its a sectional, global mod, or administrator, will be punished accordingly. There will be NO MORE disrespecting mods.
- In the same way, if a moderator is seen treating a member unfairly or unjustly, you have the right to report them, either with the report system or via PM to an administrator, in which case we will discuss the proper action to take.
Three Strike System
Some offenses are just simply not suspension or ban worthy. We will begin to use a warning system. An official warning is considered either being warned using the warn system or a moderator has to PM you asking you to calm down or something in that nature. If you have three official warnings you will be suspended for two days. If you come back and get another warning, you will be suspended for a week. If you come back after that and get another warning you will banned permanently.
These offenses included, but are not limited to
- Personal attacks
- Any actions that results in a suspension
Three Day Suspension Actions
Certain actions will be dealt with, without question, with a three day suspension
These acts include, but once again are not limited to
- Racial, religious, ethical, or any other personal attacks that would be deemed racist, sexist, or prejudicial. This does not include simplistic jokes like sandwich jokes or the word "nigga", "cracker" or anything like that. These are attacks that are meant to be mean in nature and to hurt the person they are aimed at.
- Obvious trolling
- Blatantly calling out a moderator or administrator on the forum. If you have a complaint, SIMPLY PM ME, TONY, OR PENNY.
- Making posts/threads clearly intended to make people mad or incite a mob.
Immediate Ban Actions
- Joining the site with the sole intention of posting links to other sites to steal our members
- Joining the site with the sole intention of creating drama
- Joining the site with the sole intention of insulting/degrading/attacking any member or the forum in general
- Any member that is not an administrator that hacks into another person's account
- Hacking the forum
One big issue we have ran into recently is members not posting things where they belong, these are common rules/regulations on where to place a threadr
- Please make sure the thread or a similar thread has not already been posted. If it has, please make a post in that thread.
- We will delete any double posts
- Please think about what you are posting, and then look on the forum to see if there is an appropriate section to post your thread in. If there is not, simply put it in off topic
- Do not complain when your thread is moved to the correct section. That simply is a mod doing their job.
Posted by The Logo on 01 August 2012 - 10:43 AM
25. John Stockton:10 time All-Star, holds playoff record for most assists in a game (24), led the league in assists 9 times, led the league in steals two times, 2nd best player on 2 runner-ups (1996-1997 Utah Jazz and 1997-1998 Utah Jazz) missed 22 games throughout his whole career, played 82 games in 17 of 19 seasons, first all time in assists, third all time in games played, has and average of 13 PPG and 10.4 APG, member of the '92 Dream Team
John Stockton was one of the best Robins of all time, running the show at point for Utah and excelled in Utah with their Stockton-Malone duo, that worked very efficently on offense with their pick and roll. He was unbelieveably consistent throughout his whole career, even in his final NBA season, there was no major drop for John Stockton. He had one of the best careers in terms of longetivity, only dropping below 7 assists per game, once in his career, and will be known as one of the best playmakers ever. He certainly wasn't ever the best point guard in his era, with the likes of Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, prime Penny Hardaway, and prime Kevin Johnson being there, but he will still go down in history as one of the greatest playmakers ever.
24. Bob Cousy: 13 time All-Star, '57 MVP, two All-Star MVPs, record for most assists in a half (19) led the league in assists 8 times, 2nd best player on six Boston championship teams, most playoff free throws made in a game. Average of 18/8/5 throughout his career.
You may now be asking, “really? Ahead of Stockton?” Yes. Really. He was the floor general for Boston during those 6 championships, was a quality scorrer, and one of the better floor generals, has an MVP, and of course, those 6 championships that he won with Russell. Cousy also finished second in points and first in assists in 1954 and 1955. He never was lower than top three in assists throughout his whole career and cracked at least top ten in scoring eight times in his career, and had the highest assist average eight straight times. He also had a 50 point playoff game against Syracuse where he went 25 for 25 from the free throw line. Cousy was arguably the best point guard in the 60's and opened the door for guys like Magic, Payton, Stockton, Nash, and Paul today.
23. Isiah Thomas: 12 time All-Star, 1990 Finals MVP, two time All-Star MVP, led the league in assists one time, led the league in minutes one time, finished seventh all time in assists, 14th all time in steals per game, best player on 2 championships (1989 Pistons and 1990 Pistons)
Poor Isiah. He gets commonly hated on throughout NBA history. Whether rightfully so or not, he gets hated on for being one of the worst GM's, no one wanted him on the Dream Team, even though he was clearly better than Laettner, and arguably better than John Stockton, everyone on the Dream Team didn't want him, especially Michael and Scottie, who were both sour after Thomas ordered the Pistons players into the locker room without congratulating Chicago, even Magic didn't want him on the Dream Team. Despite how much he gets hated on, he put on one of the most remarkable performances in NBA Finals' history, spraining his ankle in the third quarter, and still put up 25 in the third quarter, in a desperate attempt to finish off the Lakers in game six of the 1988 NBA Finals. He gets knocked off for having multiple feuds with Jordan, and people commonly forget Isiah as one of the greatest point guards of all time.
22. David Robinson: 10 time All-Star, '95 MVP, '90 Rookie of the year, All-Defensive First Team eight times, Defensive Player of the Year ('92) led the league in scoring once, rebounding once, and block shots once, 2nd best player on a championship team ('99 Spurs) starter on another championship team ('03 Spurs) member of the '92 Dream Team, scored 71 points in one game and put up a quadruple double in one game (34 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists, and 10 blocks)
Robinson commonly gets overlooked as one of the best centers ever, and gets completely lost in the discussion along with the likes of Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain, Shaq, and Hakeem. But make no mistake. He was one of the best players to play the game. He was strong, athletic, had good defensive tactics, and had a good offensive game. The knock on Robinson is that he was never the best center of his era. Throughout his prime, Hakeem dominated as the best center in the game and in the later part of his career, Shaq was easily the best center in the NBA. He was though, one of the greats, and was conducted himself nicely, and was very humble. He also had a three year peak where he averaged 28/11/3.
21. Scottie Pippen: Seven time All-Star, led the league in steals once, 2nd best player on (1991-1993 Bulls and 1996-1998 Bulls) four year peak of 20/8/6, averaged 22/9/6 in the 1991 NBA Playoffs, All-Defense 10 times, member of the Dream Team.
Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan was the most succesful duo of all time, winning six championships, and Pippen was the alpha dog for Chicago while Michael Jordan was under his baseball stint from 1994-1995. During that stretch, Pippen was a top five player in the league. He was one of the best defensive swing men of all time, and could give you the whole package. He was a good alpha dog, but is arguably the GOAT “Robin”. We will always remember Pippen for his six championships with Chicago and the infamous Game 3 of the 1994 Knicks series when Pippen refused to enter the final play for game three because Phil Jackson called the play for Toni Kukoc. That play was probably the biggest knock of his career. During Jordan's baseball stint, Scottie's ego was high. He felt like he should be the best player on the team. That he should be taking the last shot, and it was an insult for Jackson to call the last play for Kukoc. Despite this, Scottie was definitely the GOAT “Robin”
20. Charles Barkley: 11 time All-Star, '93 MVP, led the league in rebounding once, best player on runner up ('93 Suns) member of the '92 Dream team, averaged 22.1 PPG, 11.7 RPG and 54% shooting throughout his career, part of the 20K points, 10K rebound club.
Sir Charles is a hell of a funny analyst on TNT and he was certainly, without a doubt, one hell of a basketball player. He was undersized to play power forward, listed at 6'4, but he was a great rebounder, and an average defender and a great scorer. He was one of the most explosive power forwards ever and had a really versatile game. He was a great chemistry guy and was a great trash talker. He certainly deserved to be on the Dream Team and he's certainly a delight to have on TNT for Inside the NBA. He had a three year peak of 26/13/4 and in the Suns' '93 Playoff run, he averaged 27/14/4.
19. Lebron James: 8 All-Stars, MVP ('09, '10, '12) best player on two runner-up ('07 Cavaliers, '11 Heat) best player on championship ('12 Heat) one of eight players to win three MVP's, one of four players in NBA History to lead his team in five different statistical categories, led league in scoring (1x) All NBA First Team (6x) All Defense First Team (4x) one time Gold Medalist ('08 Redeem Team)
There is no question, with Lebron's most recent NBA Championship and Finals MVP, he is definitely already in the talks for one of the greatest to play the game. Top 10 is premature, but there is no question that he belongs in around the 15-19th mark. He is probably the most criticized and most hated basketball player in recent memory, but this season, Lebron was just plain awesome. No question about it. He definitely deserved the MVP award and the Finals MVP. He stepped up when it mattered. Game 4. Indiana. Eastern Conference Semi Finals. Lebron puts up one of the greatest stat lines in the playoffs, ever (40 points 18 rebounds 9 assists 2 steals and 2 blocks). Game 6. In a win or go home situation against Boston. They went back home alright. But with the series tied at three games a piece. Did Wade take over? No. Did Bosh take over? Heck no. It was Lebron James, destroying the Boston Celtics in game six with 45 points 15 rebounds and 5 assists preventing the haters from talking how Lebron choked. He just had so many clutch moments this season. He deserves to be on this list. And if he wins a few more championships and finals MVP? Well. We'll talk about that if it happens.
18. Julius Erving: 11 time All-Star NBA MVP ('81), runner-up MVP ('80), best player on three runner ups ('77, '80, '82 Sixers) second best player on NBA championship ('83 Sixers) All NBA First Team (5x) All NBA Second Team (2x)
The Doctor is one of the hardest players on the greatest of all time list, simply because of his ABA stint. There is no question that he was the best player in the ABA during that time. I personally don't think that the ABA stint should count, but if I were to count it, he'd be much higher on the list. Doctor J revolutionized the game for today. He made the game more exciting with his dunks and in the ABA, averaged 28.7 PPG and 12.1 RPG in his ABA career. If you were to combine his ABA and NBA stint together, he'd be in the 30 and 10 K club, which is pretty spectacular. We'll remember Erving as one of the most influential and exciting players of all time, and opened the game for young high flying athletes today.
17.John Havlicek: 13 time All Star, '74 Finals MVP, All-Defense First Team (5x) led the league in minutes (2x) most career assists for a nonguard (6114) second best player on two championships ('68 '69 Celtics) best player on two championships ('74, '76 Celtics) played for eight championships, 25K point club, played for eight championships, 12th all time in points scored, '74 Finals MVP.
Hondo is commonly one of the more forgotten small forwards in NBA history. He was complimentary to the eight championships that he won with Russell and the Celtics to say the least, and during the '74 and '76 title run, he was the alpha dog of the Boston team. He was a great scorer, averaged 22/7/5 throughout his whole playoff career. We will all remember Hondo for the “Havlicek stole the ball!!!” moment.
16. Elgin Baylor: 11 time All-Star, '63 MVP runner-up, '59 Rookie of the Year, All-Star MVP ('59) best or 2nd best player on eight runner-ups (Lakers throughout the 60's) 4th all time in PPG average (27.4) and 10th all time in RPG average (13.5) 20K and 10K club.
Another small forward we forget throughout NBA history. Baylor was a monster at scoring and on the boards. He had a three year peak of 35/17/5 and a four year playoff peak of 35/15/4. And in 1962, in only 48 games played, due to military service, he averaged 38/19/5 where he could not practice at all. That 1962 season is up there for one of the greatest statistical seasons ever in my opinion. If he won at least a couple of times during the Lakers' 60's run, he would most likely be much higher on the All-Time greats list.
15. Kevin Garnett: 12 time All-Star, '04 MVP, '00 runner-up, Defensive Player of the Year ('08) All Star MVP ('03) led the league in rebounding (4x) 2nd best player on championship ('08 Celtics) 2nd best player on runner-up ('10 Celtics) 20K-10K Club
Garnett is one of the most defensive minded athletes of recent history, as well as he is obsessed about winning. He's really passionate about the game and put defense above everything else. I never liked Garnett. I always thought he was a dirty player, and I still detest him at this point, especially that he's on the Celtics, but I can't help but respect what KG has done throughout his career. He made such a big impact on Boston when he first joined the team in '08. He changed the culture of their defense and helped them win the title. Kudos to him.
14. Karl Malone: 15 time All-Star MVP ('97 '99) All Defense (3x) All Star MVP (2x) member of the 1992 Dream Team, first all time FT's made and FTA's, second all time in points, sixth all time in rebounds, fourth all time in games played, second all time in minutes played, 35K-14K club, 11 All-NBA first teams, best player on two runner ups ('97 '98 Jazz) starter on one runner-up ('04 Lakers).
The Mailman delivered for the most part throughout his career. He was amazingly consistent, in 19 seasons in the NBA, he only dipped below 20 points twice in his career and never dipped below eight rebounds a game. Amazing consistency. He only dipped below 20 points per game in his rookie season with Utah and in his final season with the Lakers. He made the finals three, but was defeated two times by Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls and was upset by the underdog Pistons in the final year of his career. Overall, Karl Malone had a tremendous career and has one of the best careers in terms of longetivity out of all the NBA greats.
13. Moses Malone: 12 time All-Star, '83 Finals MVP, best player on one championship ('83 Sixers) best player on 1 runner-up ('81 Rockets) MVP ('79, '82, '83) led the league in rebounding (6x) led the league in minutes (1x) one of eight players to be a three time MVP, fifth all time in rebounds, fifth all time in games played, seventh all time in points, 12th all time in minutes played.
Moses Malone definitely has a resume of one of the all time greats, being a three time MVP. In the playoffs throughout his career, he averaged 22/14 and is one of the best rebounders of all time, averaging 12.2 rebounds a game. Already, with three MVP's, he deserves to be on the list as one of the top 25 greatest payers of all time. His championship also validates that he should be on the list.
12. Kobe Bryant: 15 time All-Star, Finals MVP ('09 '10) MVP ('08) led the league in scoring (2x) best player on 2 championships ('09 '10 Lakers) 2nd best player on three championships ('00, '01, '02) arguably best player on one runner-up ('04 Lakers) best player on another runner-up ('08 Lakers) 25K Point Club, All-Star MVP ('02, '07, '09) All NBA First Team (10x) All Defense First Team (9x)
The resume speaks for itself. Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players of all time. And he's still here, in an attempt to improve his resume. He has five championships as well as two Finals MVP, and if he wins any time before he retires on the Lakers, he will most likely be the Finals MVP of that Lakers' team as well. He is just so great. In a leader standpoint. He takes and makes so many tough shots. To me, he was the best player in the league in 2006. That season was the same season where he scored the second most points in NBA History (81) as well as outscoring the Mavericks through three quarters by himself (62-61) as well as setting the record for most points scored in MSG (61 points). He has averaged 25/5/5 throughout his career and has built up a great career in terms of peak (averaged 33/6/5). He has yet to dip below 24 points per game since the 1999-2000 season, and will look for his sixth championship this year.
11. Oscar Robertson: 12 time All-Star, MVP ('64), Rookie of the Year ('61) 2nd best player on championship ('71 Bucks) starter on runner-up ('74 Bucks) 25K point club, averaged 25.5 PPG, 9.5 APG, 7.5 RPG throughout his career. First (and only) player in NBA history to average a triple double
Oscar Robertson was probably the greatest all around player in NBA history. His scoring was extremely high, as well as his assists numbers, and his rebounding numbers was really high for a point guard, averaging almost eight boards a game. Here's another amazing stat. During his peak in the playoffs, he averaged 31/11/9 in 22 playoff games. Really good right? He also averaged 47.2 minutes per game!!! He almost played every single minute of the game! Just amazing. Also in 1962, we remember Wilt's 50/25 season, but let's not also forget Elgin's 38/19/5 statline while in the military, and of course, Oscar Robertson's historic triple double season.
10. Jerry West: 14 time All-Star, Finals MVP ('69) All-Defense (4x) set record for most free throws in a season (840) set record for most PPG average in one playoff series (46.3) led the league in scoring (1x) led the league in assists (1x) best player on 6 runner-ups ('65, '66, '68, '69, '70, '73) second best player on 2 runner-ups ('62, '63) best player on one championship ('72)
Now you're really mad aren't you? You're probably saying “How dare you put a '60's player ahead of Kobe Bryant! Kobe Bryant is the greatest SG in Lakers' history!”. I love Kobe. I really do. He's one of my favorite players of all time. But I need to open some eyes here. Before you stop reading this article in pure anger, please consider these few things. You say that Kobe Bryant is a better defender? Jerry West was a better defender. In his last season, they started keeping track of steals and blocks and West averaged almost three steals a game. West was a better passer, averaging almost 7 assists per game as a shooting guard, about two assists more than Kobe. West was a very underrated rebounder, averaging almost six rebounds a game, about one more rebound per game than Kobe, and he shot about 47% from the field. Great for a shooting guard. In 55 games in the NBA Finals, he averaged 30.5 points per game, averaged 27 points per game throughout his career, and averaged 26/6/10 during the stretch during the Lakers' 33 game winning streak in the 1971-1972 season. I hoped that I opened up some eyes and did not lose some readers in the process.
9. Tim Duncan: 13 time All-Star Finals MVP ('99 '03 '05) MVP ('02, '03) Rookie of the Year ('97) best player on 4 championships ('99, '03, '05, '07 Spurs) All Defense (12x) (eight time first all defense) All NBA First Team (9x)
Tim Duncan has one of the best resumes of all time. His two MVPs, three Finals MVP's and four championships speaks for itself. He has great longetivity, averaging 20/11 and two blocks throughout his career, was arguably the greatest player of the decade, with Kobe Bryant being a close second and in the '03 playoffs, he was tremendous, averaging 24/15/5, which is outstanding. Timmy did it efficiently, and was a tremendous leader on and off the court.
8. Shaquille O'Neal: 15 time All-Star Finals MVP ('00, '01, 02) MVP ('00) six top five MVP finishes, Rookie of the Year ('93) best player on three championships ('00, '01, '02 Lakers) second best player on one championship ('06 Heat) best player on one runner-ups ('95 Magic) second best player on one runner-up ('04 Lakers) led the league in scoring (2x) led the league in field goal percentage (9x) 2nd all time in field goal percentage. 25K-10K club.
The Big Diesel is one of the most loved sports figures of all time, constantly very funny and one of the most dominant big men ever. He was so strong and mobile in his prime, averaging 29/14/4 in his peak and in the three championships he won with the Lakers, he averaged 30/14/3 on 55% shooting. He averaged 25 points and 11 rebounds a game throughout his career, and was constantly on different teams like the Magic, the Lakers, the Heat, the Suns, the Cavaliers, and the Celtics. Shaq was arguably the most dominant center of all time in his prime, but there are better players than him. And so we continue.
7. Hakeem Olajuwon: 12 time All-Star, Finals MVP ('94 '95) MVP ('94) All Defense (9x) Defensive Player of the Year ('93 '94) tied for most playoff blocks in a single game (10) holds record for most career blocks, led the league in rebounding twice, led the league in blocks three times, best player on two championships ('94 '95 Rockets) best player on one runner-up. 25K-10K club.
The alpha dog of the NBA during Jordan's baseball stint is number seven all time. The Dream had amazing footwork in the post, was a terrific post defender, and was the clear cut best player in the league at the time during Jordan's baseball stint. His combined playoff averages between the '86 '94 and '95 playoffs, he averaged 29/11/4 and in the '95 Playoffs, he averaged 33/10/4.5 with 62 blocks in the whole playoffs and beat Malone, Barkley, Robinson, and Shaq. Great run by Hakeem the Dream, Olajuwon. By the way, I'd love to see the '95 Rockets against Jordan's Bulls to see who was the better team just to see a matchup between Hakeem and Jordan. We never got to see a matchup in the NBA Finals between the two best players in the 90's, unfortunately.
6. Wilt Chamberlain: 13 time All-Star MVP ('60, '66, '67) one of eight players to win three MVPs Finals MVP ('72) Rookie of the Year ('60) led the league in scoring seven times, led the league in rebounding 11 times, led the league in assists once, led the league in field goal percentage nine times, led the league in minutes eight times, holds season records for PPG (50.4) RPG (27.2) Field Goal Percentage (72.7%) most points (100) most rebounds (55) consecutive scoring titles (7) first all time in rebounds, fourth all time in points, fourth all time in minutes, best player on one championship ('67 Sixers) second best player on one championship ('72 Lakers) second best player on three runner-ups ('69, '70, '73 Lakers) best player on one runner-up ('64 Warriors) 30K-20K club (only player in that club)
The second best center in the league in the 60's is right here at number six. He of course has the record for most points in a game (100) as well as averaging 50/25 in the 1961-1962 season. He was obsessed with stats and had this thing with trying to not foul out, which is odd. When he was in foul trouble, he stopped defending as well. He put his stats ahead of the team, which is a bad thing. Yeah, stats look good on paper, but they aren't any good if you put them ahead of your team. Wilt was a statistical monster, probably the greatest stat sheet stuffer ever, and might be the most obsessed player with stats all time. Respect to Wilt for putting up great stats in his prime, but I don't really like how he sometimes put stats ahead of the team.
5. Larry Bird: 12 time All-Star, Finals MVP ('84, '86) MVP ('84, '85, '86) Rookie of the Year ('80) All Defense (2x) led the league in threes (2x) led the league in free throw percentage (4x) highest career APG for a nonguard (6.1) best player on three champioships ('81, '84, '86 Celtics) and two runner-ups ('85, '87 Celtics) member of the Dream Team. 20K point club.
Larry Legend was truly a legend in the green and white. He was a tremendous all around player, was good on defense, a great scorer, and did whatever it took to win. He averaged 27/10/9 in the '87 Playoffs, 24/10/6 on 50% shooting, 88.6 percent from the free throw line for his career and so many clutch moments. I have come to respect Bird for what he did, winning three MVPs and three championships, but I also detest him. Bird was an amazing shooter, was dead on from wherever, and was one of the greatest trash talkers of all time.
4. Magic Johnson: 12 time All-Star, Finals MVP ('80, '82, '87) three time MVP ('87 '89 '90) one of eight players to win the MVP three times, led the league in assists (4x) steals (2x) free throw percentage (1x) second best player on three championships ('80 '82 '85 Lakers) best player on two championships ('87, '88 Lakers) second best player on two runner-ups ('83 '84 Lakers) best player on two runner-ups ('89 '91 Lakers) holds 12 playoff records, member of '92 Dream Team, 10K assist club.
Magic is without a doubt, the greatest Laker of all time. He dealed with adversary after forcing Westhead out, receiving a bunch of criticism for that, was called Tragic Johnson after the '84 Finals and dealt with the HIV virus, forcing him to retire early. Did he just give up? Hell no. He came back stronger and stronger than ever. After the Lakers lost to Boston in '84, he led the Lakers to two series victories over Boston in three years, he had probably the clutchest shot in NBA Finals history, hitting the game 4 skyhook against Boston in the 1987 NBA Finals, was an inspirational leader, and happy go-lucky. He averaged 26/8/13 in the '87 Finals, averaged 19.5/7/11.2 throughout his career. He finishes as the fourth best player of all time and probably the best all around point guard the league has ever seen aside from Oscar Robertson.
3. Bill Russell: 12 time All-Star MVP ('58, '61, '62, '63, '65) one of eight players to win three MVP's, led the league in rebounding five times, second all time in RPG, first all time in RPG in the playoffs, holds record for most rebounds in one half (32) most rebounds in the Finals (40) averaged 29.5 RPG in the Finals, best player on 11 championships and 2 runner-ups (late 50's and 60's Celtics) 10-0 in Game 7's, 16-2 in elimination games, only player-coach in NBA history to win a title (2x)
I can't amount for how much Bill Russell has done. You may think that I overrate Bill Russell. Your reasoning may be because he wasn't that great of a scorer unlike Wilt Chamberlain, or Magic Johnson, or Larry Bird. He wasn't ever as dominant as Shaq or Hakeem on the offensive end. But he absolutely was a monster on defense. It was so hard to get a shot up in the paint because Russell was always there blocking your shots. Of course, blocks and steals weren't taken into acount back then. Russ also instigated the Celtics offense and when Cousy retired, Russell was always the guy who started off their offense. He was the main focus of their offense. Whether it was a rebound and a quick outlet to a cherry picking John Havlicek for two or a backdoor pass by Russell to Sam Jones, he did it all. His offense is very underrated and he is probably the greatest defensive player of all time.
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 15 time All-Star Finals MVP ('71 Bucks, '85 Lakers) MVP ('71, '72, '74, '76, '77, '80) Rookie of the Year ('70) All-Defense (11x) led the league in scoring (2x) rebounding (2x) blocked shots (2x) FG percentage (1x) minutes 1x) all time leader in points, minutes, FG's best player on four championships ('70 Bucks '80 Lakers '82 Lakers '85 Lakers) and three runner-ups ('71 Bucks '74 Bucks and '84 Lakers) second best player on one championship ('87 Lakers) third best player on one championship ('88 Lakers). Member of 35K-15K club.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the best center in NBA history. He was great on defense in the earlier part of his career, has two Finals' MVP, six MVPs, which is the most in NBA History, was a great teammate, and holds multiple records, including the all time leader in points. In '87, when Riley asked Kareem if he could be the number two option with Magic being the alpha dog of the team, he was perfectly fine with it. He was a mysterious figure, rarely showing much emotion. He was definitely the best player of the '70's and played on multiple championships and has a good case for GOAT, but the next guy has a better case, and is viewed by many as the greatest player of all time.
1. Michael Jordan: 16 time All-Star, MVP ('88, '91, '92, '96, '98) Rookie of the Year ('85) Finals MVP ('91, '92, '93, '96, '97, '98) Defensive Player of the Year ('88) All-Defense First Team (9x) averaged over 30 PPG eight times, averaged over 34 points per game in seven different playoff years, led the league in scoring (10x) led the league in steals (3x) most scoring titles of all time, most consecutive scoring titles (7) most Finals MVPs (6) highest points in a Finals series (41.0 vs the Suns in '93) most playoff points, most playoff points in a single game (63) most points in one half of an NBA Finals game (35) third all time in points, 30K point club, most threes in one half, third all time in steals.
Give yourself a high five if you survived for this long and read this whole article word for word! Obviously, Michael Jordan was the clear cut GOAT. Just had a killer instinct, the best of all time, tremendous scorer, averaged 30/6/5 throughout his career on 50% shooting and 84% free throw shooting, averaged 33/6/6 in the playoffs, and averaged 34/6/6 in the Finals, with so many clutch moments. What else is there to say? The resume speaks for itself. Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time.
Posted by Volt on 18 May 2013 - 10:15 PM
OMG guise change your radios to channel 10, Wilt is going OFF on the Knicks. He's already got the NBA record at 80 points and there is 8 minutes left!!!
1962 end of the season
Ok, Russell is great and all, but Oscar got [expletive deleted] robbed of the MVP #Rigged4Boston
Now that the Russell era is over, its finally Wilt's time. You guys can call me a Wilt stan all you want, but I'll have the last laugh when Wilt retires with more rings.
#RIGGED4BOSTON #RIGGED4BOSTON #RIGGED4BOSTON
So are we gonna act like Wilt didn't choke? Also the Willis Reed stunt was some [expletive deleted]. man [expletive deleted] the Knicks
Big O + Kareem GOAT duo
So are we gonna act like Wilt didn't clutch? Wilt is winning titles at this age and Mr MVP Kareem can't even beat him SMH
As a Knicks fan I'm really happy to win our 2nd title. Holzman is a great coach, I look forward to winning more with him in the future.
Do you guys realize how overrated the ABA and Dr. J was? the guy barely scores 20 PPG in this league.
Kareem is out and they said they are starting Magic at C, SMH #Sixersin7
You Sixers fans are delusional, we beat your ass the last two times we've played in the Finals and all of the sudden you think Moses is going to make some kind of difference? Against Kareem? puhlease.
Jordan had a great college career, and I don't blame Chicago for taking them, but its evident in NBA history that the center position is the most important. If Houston or Portland had taken him it would have been a huge mistake. Hell, I think taking Jordan over Sam Perkins was a mistake too.
LOL so are we gonna act like Jordan didn't choke? Had a wide open jumper to win Game 1 and it rolled out. #Lakersin4
Obv, the Bulls just had more depth than the Lakers last year. Portland is way deeper and Drexler is arguably just as good as Jordan with better 3 pt shooting. I think the Blazers will win in 6.
1996 during Finals Game 3
WHY AREN'T THEY PUTTING PAYTON ON JORDAN SPOFAJDF:SLK:SELKJGTW:TJEWT:KETLJ
Did you guys see Iverson cross Jordan? dude is the real deal
Air Canada in his first playoff series #Rapsin4
Kings got [expletive deleted] robbed #refball #riggedforLakers
Posted by Savage™ on 18 March 2012 - 09:08 PM
Posted by DJ. on 16 August 2012 - 05:05 PM
Posted by Swish on 01 September 2011 - 05:29 PM
Posted by Tony Hoops on 12 September 2012 - 09:44 PM
Posted by Swish on 31 August 2011 - 04:41 PM
Posted by Tony Hoops on 11 May 2013 - 07:03 AM
If you would like me to message you with details and screenshots about the new project we've been working on for Hoops-Nation, please LIKE this post. We could definitely use some opinions and suggestions!
Posted by Swish on 24 February 2013 - 02:17 PM
Not only with his great performance against the Mavericks but also with:
This was worth its own thread in General NBA I don't care.
(if any staff wants to move it, feel free to do so)
Posted by Nina Barklartey on 08 January 2013 - 09:38 AM
What made you decide to start Hoops-Nation?
Ever since my pre-teen days, I loved talking basketball, whether it was with my friends, family or even strangers at the barbershop. I found myself consistently hopping through forums, but never being fully satisfied with the communities, due to the way the administrators controlled things. After being fed up, I decided to create my own community, revolving around my own ideas and perspectives of how it should be ran. Fortunately, my staff team and I put together this amazing website we call Hoops-Nation.
Why is Hoops-Nation so important to you?
Everyone has their place to escape once they have a ton of thoughts and stress on their mind. Hoops-Nation is that place for me. I love talking basketball and just being with the community. I never thought an online website would ever give me that homey, comfortably and cozy feeling.
What is your ultimate dream for Hoops-Nation?
I'd love for us to be as big as Real GM one day. Additionally, another dream/goal of mine is to have our community host nothing but intelligent conversations and debates.
What are the great things about being the owner of H-N?
The greatest thing about being the owner of H-N is having such an amazing community and staff team to work with. Our people are truly gifted with intelligence and have extremely entertaining personalities.
What are the challenges about being the owner of H-N?
There is way too many to list, but I love each and every challenge that comes my way.
Tell us the origin of your name, Tony Hoops
When I created my basketball Facebook page, I put in a random name... like Basketball Hoops or something in that context. Then, I decided to change that name to my real name... so I changed Tony to my first name, but it did not allow me to change my last name due to Facebook policies. It stayed as Tony Hoops, and I stuck with it since it sounds pretty catchy in my opinion.
What else do you do besides H-N
I play basketball, spend time with my family, friends, and girlfriend, and go to college full-time. I used to party from Thursday to Sunday, but this semester got me really caught up since I have class Mon-Sat.
Tell us about your family
My parents are pretty easygoing. I have two older brothers (24 and 23), who basically live life like the civilized Charlie Sheen.. and a younger sister, who is actually celebrating her 14th birthday today. We're a very close family who will do anything and everything for each other.
Where are you from / live / grew up
I'm born and raised in Los Angeles, California. I've never moved, and never plan on it. I love my city and can't imagine living anywhere else. However, I do love to travel and explore the world though!
Did you / do you play basketball
I play basketball, but not as much as I used to. As a kid, I would play from morning to night.. before school, during school, and after school. I slowed down though, after my doctor said I had the "Osgood-Schlatter disease", which is a painful swelling of the bump on the upper part of the shinbone, just below the knee. Nothing to serious, but it stopped me from playing 24/7 like I used to.
What do you love about the game / NBA
Honestly, everything. I love the three pointers, the layups, the dunks, the big shots, the nice passes, the clutch plays, the fans, the broadcasters, the coaches, the GM's, the trade rumors, the free agent signings, the game plans, the cheerleaders, and just about everything else you could think of that relates to basketball.
If you could change one thing about the NBA what would it be
I would let the players play more physical. I want to see players bashing heads and showing emotion more often. Whatever happened to those heated rivalries and crazy NBA fights?! Things are getting too soft nowadays.
What would you like your legacy in the world to be
My legacy from everyones standpoint wouldn't be as important to me as my legacy from my family’s standpoint.. Therefore, I'd just love to be known as a hardworking father who gave his all to his family and kids. But to answer your question, I'd love to be known as the man who connected the basketball community, and also took the marketing industry to another level (since I have a passion in marketing).
What’s your favorite meal, band / song, color, movie at the current time
I love sushi and oysters. My favorite band of all time has to be Pink Floyd. In the hip-hop industry, my current favorite musicians are Kendrick Lamar and ASAP Rocky. My favorite color is the color of the sunset. My favorite movie is Pulp Fiction.
What are you afraid of
Seeing a loved one hurt. Only answer I can really come up with.
Is there anything that the Nation does not know about you that you would like them to know
I appreciate every second each and every member spends on this board. It means more to me than they can imagine.
Anything else that you want to add
I love H-N and would do anything for this community. I'd just love to add that anyone can feel free to PM me at any time, whether it's for a forum suggestion, or just a friendly conversation!
Shoutout to Nina and the writing team for these awesome questions.. Shoutout to Roggy and our staff team for holding it down for H-N.. and Shoutout to every user in the Nation! We're the greatest forum on the web!
Posted by scootermagruder on 19 August 2012 - 09:43 AM