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My honest criteria for Lebron James to rank among the all-time greats.

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Posted

IMO it matters from now on how many championships and finals MVP'S that he wins. I'll take the reg. season in account a little bit unless he explodes or majorly declines. Only if that happens I'll take the reg. season/playoffs into account majorly.

For example: If he wins 4 championships and 3 finals mvps I'll see him as better than Larry Bird.

Why 4? Because he had previous failure in the finals that cannot be ignored. Or if he declines majorly in the reg season/playoffs or explodes/chokes then the 4 rings 3 finals mvp rule will change.

My criteria for him to reach the top ten: If he wins 3 championships and 2 finals mvps I'll consider him a top ten player of all-time. That is if he keeps up what he's doing now. If he declines the championship criteria will go up. If he explodes the championship criteria will go down.

Now last thing: If he wins 7 championships and 7 finals mvps I'll consider him better than Micheal Jordan.

Again thats if what he's doing in the regular season/playoffs stays the same. Basically if he continues on like this and he wins that many I'll see him as the greatest player to EVER play the game.

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Posted

He just needs to win. Plain and simple. Win so much that the 2011 Finals becomes completely forgettable.

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Posted

Thats kind of high. If he wins 2 more titles and another MVP and keeps this level of play for 4 more seasons thats enough for me to call him the best.

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Posted

Lmfao if he wins 7 rings he'll be the GOAT.

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Let's see... LeBron is most likely going to get his 20,000th point this year (only 686 points away), so he's basically a lock for that unless he gets injured or something goes terribly wrong. He's #57 in Career Assists and 43rd in Points Scored. He's now in his tenth year, I think that if he keeps at this pace, he'll be able to reach 30,000+ points (maybe even pass Jordan) and he'll definitely have more assists than Jordan by a long shot (almost 3,000 more at this pace). While his career may end with better stats than Jordan, there is more that needs to be defined to really call him the GOAT. First, I think that he definitely needs to win more championships in his career, I think that 7 is a bit of a stretch, so, for me, 5 championships will do and anywhere from 3-5 MVPs. While that does sound impressive, I think that that's only bottom barrel, or the minimum, that he can do to maybe be in talks of "Is he greater than Michael Jordan?". Furthermore, I think that LeBron has to definitely win MVP of the league more than Michael Jordan. He's already at 3, and the amazing numbers he's been putting up since last year should easily ride him to a fourth if he keeps up the pace. If he plays the way he did last year for the rest of his career, I think that he will surpass Jordan in most categories and then some. He is no doubt an amazing player. Will he make the Hall of Fame? Yes, www.basketball-reference.com gives him a .998 percent chance to make the HOF. Will he be greater than the greatest basketball player to ever set foot on the Earth? Only time will tell. LeBron is no doubt the greatest player on the planet, but I'm still unsure of exactly how much, and if he can achieve that amount, it will take to officially call LeBron James the Greatest Player of All-Time.

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Posted

Why don't people realize team play has ALOT to do with winning championships?

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To me, it's just a matter of him redeeming himself completely after the atrocious 2011 NBA Finals Fiasco. Magic had to overcome the "Tragic Johnson" stuff after he choked in '84. Hardly anyone remembers that now. Magic redeemed himself because of winning the next two straight finals match ups against Boston and had that game 4 hook shot in '87. Lebron doesn't have the luxury to face the Mavs with Chandler and Stevenson in order to redeem himself. He has 3 MVPs, a ring and a Finals MVP. To me, he has to win one more MVP and a couple of titles and be the best player on those teams to pass Larry Bird on the all time list. But to me, those championships have to be against Durant and the Thunder. Why? Because it would show that he'd have to outplay Durant and play against a team that is young and will give Miami a run for its money. In order for him to be known as the GOAT, for me, he'll have to win two more MVPs and six more championships and must be the best player in the Finals for at least five of those. Also he must go undefeated in those Final series. Why? Because he must prove that he is past the choker label and indeed that he is clutch. He is one of the most statistically dominant players that we have ever seen play the game. He just needs to win more and if he does win enough, by the end of his career, if he wins six more titles and five more Finals MVP and a couple more MVPs, Lebron James will be the Greatest of All Time in my book.

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Posted

James will most likely have a contending cast for at least 2-3 more seasons. If he manages to win 2-3 in 3 seasons his case becomes much better.

He'll win at least one more MVP IMO and he'll be the best player in the league for a good 5 years more IMO.

We can't just look at the rings though cuz your teammates are part of the equation. We should wait.

But people saying that James with 1 ring needs 1 or 2 more rings to surpass Jordan is so pathetic... that... weel, it's so pathetic. Period. Who ever says that should get a life.

Let's just enjoy watching this awesome player cuz in many years from now we'll say "I watched LeBron James play in his prime" or "I watched the whole career of James" and we'll feel privileged and lucky.

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Posted

Why don't people realize team play has ALOT to do with winning championships?

I do. Obviously he needs a good supporting cast. That's why I don't count 2007 against him.

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Posted

James will most likely have a contending cast for at least 2-3 more seasons. If he manages to win 2-3 in 3 seasons his case becomes much better.

He'll win at least one more MVP IMO and he'll be the best player in the league for a good 5 years more IMO.

We can't just look at the rings though cuz your teammates are part of the equation. We should wait.

But people saying that James with 1 ring needs 1 or 2 more rings to surpass Jordan is so pathetic... that... weel, it's so pathetic. Period. Who ever says that should get a life.

Let's just enjoy watching this awesome player cuz in many years from now we'll say "I watched LeBron James play in his prime" or "I watched the whole career of James" and we'll feel privileged and lucky.

I know lots of things count. Not just championships but many other things that I won't explain right now. Oh yeah in about 2 seasons I think Wade is going to be out for the count so...

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Posted

I'd say let us appreciate his talent right now and rank him when his career's over because in terms of talent alone he's one of the greats.

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Posted

Why don't people realize team play has ALOT to do with winning championships?

I think everyone who has watched the game for a while realises this. How come so many ppl discount that fact that if you're a top 4-6 player in the league you can greatly affect how well your team performs and your goal should be to win a title and a failure to do so affects your legacy?

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Posted

I think everyone who has watched the game for a while realises this. How come so many ppl discount that fact that if you're a top 4-6 player in the league you can greatly affect how well your team performs and your goal should be to win a title and a failure to do so affects your legacy?

No. Obviously this sounds ridiculous because LeBron was on the Cavaliers.

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Posted

It's too early to tell. Also, Michael Jordan didn't have another top 5 player along him during the title runs. You also have to take into account the two very different eras they're playing in. You can score easily in this one than in Jordan's.

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It's too early to tell. Also, Michael Jordan didn't have another top 5 player along him during the title runs. You also have to take into account the two very different eras they're playing in. You can score easily in this one than in Jordan's.

Scottie Pippen in his prime is better than what Wade is currently. Wade at the moment is not playing like a top 5 player, nor was he a top 5 player during the playoffs. MJ had a good supporting cast that is as good as LBJ if not better, in the second 3-peat Jordan had Pippen who was still playing at a high level, Rodman who was still rebounding and defending at an elite level, Steve Kerr who was a knockdown shooter, Toni Kukoc who was a great 6th man, Ron Harper was an elite defender and was a 20 point scorer prior to joining the Bulls. I don't want to get into the era debate but statistically this is the most defensively efficient era. Jordan played with handchecking althought it was toned down in 94, while LeBron plays against zone defenses.

Anyway I agree with the OP for the most part. I think if LeBron ties Jordan with 6 rings, I would consider LeBron to be better because I would then take appearances into account. I think LeBron going back to Cleveland and getting a championship would do wonders for his legacy.

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Scottie Pippen in his prime is better than what Wade is currently. Wade at the moment is not playing like a top 5 player, nor was he a top 5 player during the playoffs. MJ had a good supporting cast that is as good as LBJ if not better, in the second 3-peat Jordan had Pippen who was still playing at a high level, Rodman who was still rebounding and defending at an elite level, Steve Kerr who was a knockdown shooter, Toni Kukoc who was a great 6th man, Ron Harper was an elite defender and was a 20 point scorer prior to joining the Bulls. I don't want to get into the era debate but statistically this is the most defensively efficient era. Jordan played with handchecking althought it was toned down in 94, while LeBron plays against zone defenses.

Anyway I agree with the OP for the most part. I think if LeBron ties Jordan with 6 rings, I would consider LeBron to be better because I would then take appearances into account. I think LeBron going back to Cleveland and getting a championship would do wonders for his legacy.

It seems like everything Wade done was forgotten and everyone focused and is still focusing on Lebron. It's a crying shame IMO. So Lebron came to Miami to win but at the end of his career he should go back to Cleveland to get more love? That doesn't make sense. I'd burn his Jersey for that :D

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Posted

LeBron can never be GOAT simply because of 2011 Finals because the GOAT wouldn't let that happen.

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Posted

I find i

LeBron can never be GOAT simply because of 2011 Finals because the GOAT wouldn't let that happen.

Jordan had his downfalls through out his career every player does

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Scottie Pippen in his prime is better than what Wade is currently. Wade at the moment is not playing like a top 5 player, nor was he a top 5 player during the playoffs. MJ had a good supporting cast that is as good as LBJ if not better, in the second 3-peat Jordan had Pippen who was still playing at a high level, Rodman who was still rebounding and defending at an elite level, Steve Kerr who was a knockdown shooter, Toni Kukoc who was a great 6th man, Ron Harper was an elite defender and was a 20 point scorer prior to joining the Bulls. I don't want to get into the era debate but statistically this is the most defensively efficient era. Jordan played with handchecking althought it was toned down in 94, while LeBron plays against zone defenses.

Anyway I agree with the OP for the most part. I think if LeBron ties Jordan with 6 rings, I would consider LeBron to be better because I would then take appearances into account. I think LeBron going back to Cleveland and getting a championship would do wonders for his legacy.

Are you kidding? Wade is much better then Pippen as far as contributing. In 2011, he outplayed James so hard vs Mavs, it was ridiculous. He had one of the highest PERs ever in a finals series...but James choked and lost. Bosh is better then Rodman by a lot. Ray Allen is a more solid experienced shooter vs Kerr. Ron Harper had knee problems and lost his ppg and cutting heavily before joining the Bulls, and was worse then Chalmers. The Heat are more stacked minus one player - MJ >>>>>>>> Lebron.

Lebron chokes continually in PS situations, often just dropping out of the series and asking his teammates to carry him. MJ went vs a comparable team defense - not really, the Celtics were arguably more stringent - and averaged huge figures on high FG% with his much worse team then the Cavs had. MJ NEVER, EVER, lost his team a series. If he was sick, bloody, etc. he'd put up numbers better then Lebron has. Even IF Lebron wins 7 championships and 7 MVPs, that wouldn't equal what he's lost for his teams while MJ always went beyond what LBJ best series ever was - but in almost every series, in perma 2team (except maybe in 95, he lost vs against Shaq, but hard to render a comparison using that vs LBJ against Howard...)

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Are you kidding? Wade is much better then Pippen as far as contributing. In 2011, he outplayed James so hard vs Mavs, it was ridiculous. He had one of the highest PERs ever in a finals series...but James choked and lost. Bosh is better then Rodman by a lot. Ray Allen is a more solid experienced shooter vs Kerr. Ron Harper had knee problems and lost his ppg and cutting heavily before joining the Bulls, and was worse then Chalmers. The Heat are more stacked minus one player - MJ >>>>>>>> Lebron.

Lebron chokes continually in PS situations, often just dropping out of the series and asking his teammates to carry him. MJ went vs a comparable team defense - not really, the Celtics were arguably more stringent - and averaged huge figures on high FG% with his much worse team then the Cavs had. MJ NEVER, EVER, lost his team a series. If he was sick, bloody, etc. he'd put up numbers better then Lebron has. Even IF Lebron wins 7 championships and 7 MVPs, that wouldn't equal what he's lost for his teams while MJ always went beyond what LBJ best series ever was - but in almost every series, in perma 2team (except maybe in 95, he lost vs against Shaq, but hard to render a comparison using that vs LBJ against Howard...)

Pippen, in his prime, when Jordan retired for the first time, he almost (and should have) led the Bulls to the ECF (and he could maybe go till the Finals) and finished 3rd in the MVP race behind only Hakeem and Robinson and passed players like Shaq, Ewing, Payton, Malone, Barkley etc.

Wade only finished 3rd in the MVP voting (with less competition than Pippen) in 2009. @ISOMELO talked about Prime Pippen and current Wade. Well, Pippen was a better player in that comparison. He just is.

And please, please, tell me how Bosh is a better player than Rodman?!?!

That's a rhetorical question because I'm pretty sure how your answer will look like. Bosh is better because he can shoot and score, right? Well, no. Rodman's impact on a basketball game >>> Bosh's impact, especially when neither of them are the number one option on their teams. Rodman has a case for the GOAT rebounder, while Bosh has a case for softest rebounder. Rodman's all-around defense was probably equally important for his team, to his rebounding ability. Rodman, throughout his career was put on Jordan, Malone, Shaq, Bird and any other legend you can imagine. Especially in his Pistons days, he'd always take care of the greatest threat of the opposing team. That's impact.

Bosh is also a better shooter and scorer than Russell. Is he better than him?

I agree, Bosh and Rodman are not close... but in the other way around. That's not even debatable.FYI, George Karl, after the 1996 Finals, said that Rodman was the MVP of the series. He just messed Karl's team chances of winning because of the things he did on the floor.

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Pippen, in his prime, when Jordan retired for the first time, he almost (and should have) led the Bulls to the ECF (and he could maybe go till the Finals) and finished 3rd in the MVP race behind only Hakeem and Robinson and passed players like Shaq, Ewing, Payton, Malone, Barkley etc.

Wade only finished 3rd in the MVP voting (with less competition than Pippen) in 2009. @ISOMELO talked about Prime Pippen and current Wade. Well, Pippen was a better player in that comparison. He just is.

And please, please, tell me how Bosh is a better player than Rodman?!?!

That's a rhetorical question because I'm pretty sure how your answer will look like. Bosh is better because he can shoot and score, right? Well, no. Rodman's impact on a basketball game >>> Bosh's impact, especially when neither of them are the number one option on their teams. Rodman has a case for the GOAT rebounder, while Bosh has a case for softest rebounder. Rodman's all-around defense was probably equally important for his team, to his rebounding ability. Rodman, throughout his career was put on Jordan, Malone, Shaq, Bird and any other legend you can imagine. Especially in his Pistons days, he'd always take care of the greatest threat of the opposing team. That's impact.

Bosh is also a better shooter and scorer than Russell. Is he better than him?

I agree, Bosh and Rodman are not close... but in the other way around. That's not even debatable.FYI, George Karl, after the 1996 Finals, said that Rodman was the MVP of the series. He just messed Karl's team chances of winning because of the things he did on the floor.

The "current wade" you're referencing hasn't been the only one Lebron has gone with. If you're referring to one brief stint of playing through injuries at 50%, then he wasn't great, but yes, Wade is far superior....

Also, Rodman wasn't in his prime when on the Bulls. In his prime, he was a GOAT rebounder and defender..but 5-6rpg more and 13ppg less isn't a good arguement for Rodman at all. It's not an arguement** at all. Bosh has been arguably a best current top 5 PF when playing healthy. Rodman wasn't the equal of Malone/Kemp/10 others. Did you even watch that series? Live, it wasn't close...MVP is NOT Rodman.

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The "current wade" you're referencing hasn't been the only one Lebron has gone with. If you're referring to one brief stint of playing through injuries at 50%, then he wasn't great, but yes, Wade is far superior....

Also, Rodman wasn't in his prime when on the Bulls. In his prime, he was a GOAT rebounder and defender..but 5-6rpg more and 13ppg less isn't a good arguement for Rodman at all. It's not an arguement** at all. Bosh has been arguably a best current top 5 PF when playing healthy. Rodman wasn't the equal of Malone/Kemp/10 others. Did you even watch that series? Live, it wasn't close...MVP is NOT Rodman.

Come on man, obviously the MVP was Jordan but that statement by Karl shows you the impact Rodman had on the Bulls. It goes far beyond stats. Rodman's impact -even with the Bulls- is easily greater than Bosh's impact. If the Bulls had Bosh instead of Rodman, there is no way in hell they were winning the series. I hope we're on the same page here.

And about Wade, the question is: can he stay healthy? The Dwyane Wade I have watched this season (I admit I haven't seen many Heat games), I'm not sure he'd hold his own against prime Pippen who finished the '95 and the '96 season as the runner-up for the DOTY award.

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Come on man, obviously the MVP was Jordan but that statement by Karl shows you the impact Rodman had on the Bulls. It goes far beyond stats. Rodman's impact -even with the Bulls- is easily greater than Bosh's impact. If the Bulls had Bosh instead of Rodman, there is no way in hell they were winning the series. I hope we're on the same page here.

And about Wade, the question is: can he stay healthy? The Dwyane Wade I have watched this season (I admit I haven't seen many Heat games), I'm not sure he'd hold his own against prime Pippen who finished the '95 and the '96 season as the runner-up for the DOTY award.

Rodman did great on the Bulls - he had his niche defending big men that was hugely impacting, considering their stars were MJ/Pippen, and had no C. Without Rodman, 97+98 = Jazz in not that many. It's like for the Lakers, Bosh >> Gasol, but for Heat Gasol >> Bosh. Without Rodman, indeed, the Bulls suffer - and MJ scored enough that Bosh would be a Role PF.

But if one team were to take either player to build as a main option, it'd be pretty hard to consider this unlopsided. Even for a team looking for just a little scoring inside, Bosh opens up lanes + has huge height. superstar lvl, Bosh was 25ppg 10rpg at one point - not exactly deflated.

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Rodman did great on the Bulls - he had his niche defending big men that was hugely impacting, considering their stars were MJ/Pippen, and had no C. Without Rodman, 97+98 = Jazz in not that many. It's like for the Lakers, Bosh >> Gasol, but for Heat Gasol >> Bosh. Without Rodman, indeed, the Bulls suffer - and MJ scored enough that Bosh would be a Role PF.

But if one team were to take either player to build as a main option, it'd be pretty hard to consider this unlopsided. Even for a team looking for just a little scoring inside, Bosh opens up lanes + has huge height. superstar lvl, Bosh was 25ppg 10rpg at one point - not exactly deflated.

That's why -in my first post- I said "especially when neither of them are the number one option on their teams". Bosh is more capable of being a franchise player (for a Raptors level franchise though) than Rodman just because he can take over scoring unlike Rodman. But when they're not the #1 options or even #2 in that case, Rodman is the more valuable player.

You got a good point about Rodman being a better fit for the Bulls since they didn't have a center to grab boards (and Bosh wouldn't be the solution) but the thing is that Rodman would be more useful to the Heat as well.

He's just more impactful than Bosh (when neither one is #1 option).

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That's why -in my first post- I said "especially when neither of them are the number one option on their teams". Bosh is more capable of being a franchise player (for a Raptors level franchise though) than Rodman just because he can take over scoring unlike Rodman. But when they're not the #1 options or even #2 in that case, Rodman is the more valuable player.

You got a good point about Rodman being a better fit for the Bulls since they didn't have a center to grab boards (and Bosh wouldn't be the solution) but the thing is that Rodman would be more useful to the Heat as well.

He's just more impactful than Bosh (when neither one is #1 option).

IDK if that's true for the Heat. Bosh could be a huge impact maker as a #2, and was earlier this season. If Wade were shifted to PG, and used his quickness to create a lot more, this team would be much more dynamic. OFC, idk if his court vision is up to the creating. But with Bosh opening up Lanes, it would really help a player without a lockdown jumper who uses wing/perimiter (LBJ).

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