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The Flaws of Defensive Win Shares


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#1 OFFLINE   Fakhrul

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:47 AM

I always suspected that Win Shares's extremely flawed (especially the defensive one), so i try to make some research and only got my suspicion stronger.On the same time, i got interested to make an article about basketball, so i made this one.
Please, ignore some weak writing and the mistakes.
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#2 OFFLINE   SportsFan93

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:53 AM

Great topic. Thanks for posting

Great topic. Thanks for posting

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:10 AM

Every stat is flawed to some degree. All of them aren't taken in consideration when we're talking about the greats of all time in this league. That's where the eye test, footage, articles and so on comes in. If we look the game based on stats and stats only, Wilt'd be by far the GOAT basketball player ever and there would be no debate... at all.

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#4 OFFLINE   TeoTheGreek13

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:14 AM

Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing.

Now...
Me and probably everyone who has used DWS, have noticed from time to time some crazy numbers for players that weren't good on defense. But on the other hand, most of the great defenders, have very high DWS numbers. I mean, for some players, DWS may picture their real defensive abilities in contrast with some others.

Something that I noticed reading that, is that the Celtics had too many players in those all-defense teams. That probably means that DWS are directly related with team defense.

 

I believe that the WS numbers overall though are much more accurate than the DWS.


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#5 ONLINE   The Future

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:18 AM

I want to say that not everyone who has high stats in some category is considered great at something. For example, Ice has a ton of amount of blocked shots but no one considers him an excellent defender.. actually far from that.

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#6 OFFLINE   Fakhrul

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:02 PM

Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing.

Now...
Me and probably everyone who has used DWS, have noticed from time to time some crazy numbers for players that weren't good on defense. But on the other hand, most of the great defenders, have very high DWS numbers. I mean, for some players, DWS may picture their real defensive abilities in contrast with some others.

Something that I noticed reading that, is that the Celtics had too many players in those all-defense teams. That probably means that DWS are directly related with team defense.


I believe that the WS numbers overall though are much more accurate than the DWS.

One thing that's also directly involved with WS is playing minutes.That's why Bob Cousy has very high Winning Share.But, before someone gave that crazy number for Cousy, he should've at least searching whether Bob Cousy is at least decent at best on defense, LOL.

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#7 OFFLINE   Rondo is G.O.A.T

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:08 PM

One thing that's also directly involved with WS is playing minutes.That's why Bob Cousy has very high Winning Share.But, before someone gave that crazy number for Cousy, he should've at least searching whether Bob Cousy is at least decent at best, LOL.

Bob Cousy is one of the best PG's of all time.
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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:12 PM

Bob Cousy is one of the best PG's of all time.


And he is because of his offense, his impact on offense and being just one of those guys who revolutionized the league with their play, in his particular case, flashiness. As good as he was offensively, he was 10x times worse defensively. We penalize Nash for his D, but at least, he tries... Bob never did and he admitted it. That's why I don't understand people that put him in their all time lists so so high.

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#9 OFFLINE   Rondo is G.O.A.T

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:14 PM

And he is because of his offense, his impact on offense and being just one of those guys who revolutionized the league with their play, in his particular case, flashiness. As good as he was offensively, he was 10x times worse defensively. We penalize Nash for his D, but at least, he tries... Bob never did and he admitted it. That's why I don't understand people that put him in their all time lists so so high.

Well, he is a lot higher than "At least decent". The post made it seem like he wasn't a top 50 PG or something. He is top 10-15 without a doubt and if this is going off legacy and awards and what the player did to the game then top 5 is understandable
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#10 ONLINE   The Future

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

Well, he is a lot higher than "At least decent". The post made it seem like he wasn't a top 50 PG or something. He is top 10-15 without a doubt and if this is going off legacy and awards and what the player did to the game then top 5 is understandable


I've seen people put Cousy as #10 on their all time lists... I never understood that. This guy played at one side of the court and all of his major success came after '56... after Russell came along. That what was my comment about.
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#11 OFFLINE   Rondo is G.O.A.T

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:21 PM

I've seen people put Cousy as #10 on their all time lists... I never understood that. This guy played at one side of the court and all of his major success came after '56... after Russell came along. That what was my comment about.

Yeah, he isn't a top 10 player of all time, but he is a top 10 PG of all time and that is what my original post was about. The fact that guy said he isn't even decent is just wrong lol
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#12 OFFLINE   Fakhrul

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:33 PM

Yeah, he isn't a top 10 player of all time, but he is a top 10 PG of all time and that is what my original post was about. The fact that guy said he isn't even decent is just wrong lol

I respected Bob Cousy.He's a legit top 5 Offensive Point Guard.But he's a very bad defender by many accounts including himself.What i'm talking about not even decent is his defense.
Sorry, for the misunderstanding.LOL.

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#13 OFFLINE   Real Deal

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

Good thread.

I'm not at all surprised by Cousy being ranked undeservingly by this worthless metric. Carlos Boozer led the Bulls in defensive win shares last season. That speaks volumes about the metrics credibility considering the fact his coach benches him in the fourth quarter of games because of his poor play defensively.

#14 OFFLINE   Fakhrul

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:04 PM

Good thread.

I'm not at all surprised by Cousy being ranked undeservingly by this worthless metric. Carlos Boozer led the Bulls in defensive win shares last season. That speaks volumes about the metrics credibility considering the fact his coach benches him in the fourth quarter of games because of his poor play defensively.

Thanks for the visit and comment.You just add another reason of why this metric's suck.

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