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LeBron James on the 1988-89 Cleveland Cavaliers?


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#61 OFFLINE   Absolute Prophet

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

I didn't say that those guys wouldn't dominate as well... -_-

Those players opinions on the issue hold much more water than ours because they play basketball in the NBA. Especially when Drexler says that Jordan would have it easy, it means something.

And no, the tougher defense in the 80s is a fact, is not something subjective and you should know that since you watch 80's games.


I never said tougher D wasnt a fact im saying that doesnt mean that its better defense today because based off our evidence that we have you will se the zone defense was illegal the reason I say its a subjective matter because Some think hand checking is better some say zone is better but based off our evidence teams did average more point in the 90s 80s and then the nba today that may be due to defensive changes or maybe because the game is played further from the rim. And another thing John Salley played for the pistons and said Jordan wasnt the GOAT he said Magic was so is Magic the GOAT like I said its not as one sided as people try to make it seem

#62 OFFLINE   TeoTheGreek13

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

I never said tougher D wasnt a fact im saying that doesnt mean that its better defense today because based off our evidence that we have you will se the zone defense was illegal the reason I say its a subjective matter because Some think hand checking is better some say zone is better but based off our evidence teams did average more point in the 90s 80s and then the nba today that may be due to defensive changes or maybe because the game is played further from the rim. And another thing John Salley played for the pistons and said Jordan wasnt the GOAT he said Magic was so is Magic the GOAT like I said its not as one sided as people try to make it seem

I don't care what Salley said as this isn't our subject.

Zone defense << hand checking as far as difficulty for the offensive player is concerned. Please. Zone defense exists in order to cover the inability of some players to guard their guy, man to man. Mainly for that.
The bigs were still there. Jordans, Niques and those guys, didn't have any major problems with zone defense as they were unstoppable at entering the paint.

The teams in the 80's and 90's averaged more points because of the faster pace and maybe because the average talent was on another level.
As the years go by, the game becomes more and more offense friendly and defense doesn't get favored by that.

Anyway, what's our argument here?
I ask you one final time: you think it's the same (no matter who you are, Jordan, James, Luke Walton...) to drive the lane and meet Hibbert & West, than driving the lane and meeting Hakeem and Sampson?! (just an example)
No, it's not. That's the bottom line.

There is no way James wouldn't dominate any era, but it would be harder in the 80's.

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#63 OFFLINE   Absolute Prophet

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:27 PM

I don't care what Salley said as this isn't our subject.

Zone defense << hand checking as far as difficulty for the offensive player is concerned. Please. Zone defense exists in order to cover the inability of some players to guard their guy, man to man. Mainly for that.
The bigs were still there. Jordans, Niques and those guys, didn't have any major problems with zone defense as they were unstoppable at entering the paint.

The teams in the 80's and 90's averaged more points because of the faster pace and maybe because the average talent was on another level.
As the years go by, the game becomes more and more offense friendly and defense doesn't get favored by that.

Anyway, what's our argument here?
I ask you one final time: you think it's the same (no matter who you are, Jordan, James, Luke Walton...) to drive the lane and meet Hibbert & West, than driving the lane and meeting Hakeem and Sampson?! (just an example)
No, it's not. That's the bottom line.

There is no way James wouldn't dominate any era, but it would be harder in the 80's.


I still dont get why it would be harder people act like his jumpshot is trash and all he does is drive people also forget he is a pass first type of guy

#64 OFFLINE   Djoker

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:34 PM

If Clyde Drexler in 87-88 puts up 27/7/6 on 51% shooting how does any prime Lebron not put up 30/8/7 on 53%?

I mean come on now there is nothing that Clyde is better at (maybe FT% slightly) than Lebron. Bron is a better rebounder, stronger at the rim, better shooter especially at long-range, and way superior defender in every facet. Some people are underrating Lebron like crazy.

#65 OFFLINE   TeoTheGreek13

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:43 PM

I still dont get why it would be harder people act like his jumpshot is trash and all he does is drive people also forget he is a pass first type of guy

I'm talking about finishing at the basket. That's the initial issue. I'm not talking about his jumper.

So, you answered no to my Q?!?!
Whatever.

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#66 OFFLINE   Bball_Jones

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:28 PM

I never said tougher D wasnt a fact im saying that doesnt mean that its better defense today because based off our evidence that we have you will se the zone defense was illegal the reason I say its a subjective matter because Some think hand checking is better some say zone is better but based off our evidence teams did average more point in the 90s 80s and then the nba today that may be due to defensive changes or maybe because the game is played further from the rim. And another thing John Salley played for the pistons and said Jordan wasnt the GOAT he said Magic was so is Magic the GOAT like I said its not as one sided as people try to make it seem


I've said this before in the 80's teams scored more at higher FG% because teams shot way less 3's, pace was higher, teams liked to run more and didn't waste so much time on the shotclock, more inside ball being played, much better bigs, better passing game, postgame, and midrange game, around the league, better shotselection, less iso for stars wasting the clock then taking dumb shots and so on...
See what some of the best passing teams do nowadays, most of the best teams are the ones that move that can move the ball around, and in the 80's plenty of teams were great at moving/passing the ball.

A team like the '85 Bucks gave up 104 PPG (first that year) and they were a great defensive team, the Bobcats gave up 101 PPG last season and they pretty much sucked. Now answer me this, are the Bobcats better defensively than the Bucks? Would the Bobcats be giving the same amount of points if they played against some of those 80's teams like the Lakers, Celtics, 76ers, Pistons, Nuggets, Bulls, Rockets, Hawks, Bucks, Blazers... No, the 80's had better teams/players on average, loaded teams, plus playing at a higher pace.
Plus when you can score a bunch of points to win the game you rest up and give up more points than you could've. Like the 86 Celtics scored 114 and gave up 105, per game, the Clippers right now score 102 and give up 93...
Look at the Wizards with the worst record, 10th in points taken per game, but last in points scored.
Also DRtg is pretty much the same...
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#67 OFFLINE   Bball_Jones

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:39 PM

If Clyde Drexler in 87-88 puts up 27/7/6 on 51% shooting how does any prime Lebron not put up 30/8/7 on 53%?


Simple, he does...
Let's say he's in his prime, plays on a good team, handles the ball as much or more than he does now, may shoot a little less 3's, I'd say around 30 points, probably a bit more than 8.3 and 7, rebounds and assists respectively, at around 53% from the field... Give or take considering the circumstances.

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#68 OFFLINE   elmouse03

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:28 PM

That's a dynasty right there because off all the offense that they have.

#69 OFFLINE   ISOMELO

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:36 PM

Wilt would dominate 90s/00s...wtf? a 7'1 C with great athleticism/post play and boxing? with 8apg?

Lebron is very comparable to Nique- very similar games, athleticism, etc. Lebron more str., nique more acrobatics. however, it'd be a far lower FG% and tougher finish in the 80s/90s. His rebounding could increase, but with harassment the style of play used by some players (driving and dishing) would be far less effective due to defenses collapsing a total of 0 and instead finishing against huge physical C/PF....

I'd put LBJ statline at 32/(7-10)/2. with 42-45% FG (similar to the top end slashers of 80s). his rebounding currently is inflated from playing with Bosh/Anthony/Ilgouskas...

Why would LeBron shoot 42-45% and only average 2 assists? First of all LeBron has great shot selection you barely see LeBron with an ill-advised drive to the basket or a bad perimeter jumper. Also James would thrive in a more fast paced game such as the one played in the 80s. After his rookie year James has never shot under 47%, league average FG% for both perimeter players and big men were higher in the 80s. James is also one of the best non-passing PG's of All-Time he has literally run the offenses of Cleveland and Miami throughout his career. He goes through stretches of games where all he does is try to find open shooters and try to get others involved, he's also great at passing out of double-teams. LeBron isn't struggling in the 80s purists always seem to think that, he's LeBron James. Basketball is about talent, James is one of the most talented players ever. I say his stats increase based on the increased pace 10-20 more possessions a game depending on what team you put him on. On a balanced team like the Cavaliers he averages 25/10/7 on 50-52% on a weak supporting cast 32/8/7 on 48-52%. LeBron isn't going to be roughed up or handchecked everytime he tries to score. Also if your putting James in a more physical era your allowing him to be more physical as well meaning less offensive fouls and more steals/blocks defensively.
Let's not act like the defense of the 80s is THAT much better than the defense that was played in the 00s or today. In the 00s you have three great defensive powerhouses (Detroit Pistons, San Antonio Spurs, Boston Celtics) with other solid defensive teams. The 00s had a little handchecking, rotating zones, more halfcourt/grind it out game. Lets not act like it wasn't physical because at the time the NBA had the reputation of the thug league with brawls and scuffles prominent. Their were also some great defensive players like KG, Duncan, Ben Wallace, Artest, Bowen. Today you have teams like the Indiana Pacers and Chicago Bulls that really lock you down loading up the strong side of the floor, playing excellent help defense. Purists act as if defense is non-existent today.
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#70 OFFLINE   Absolute Prophet

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:21 PM

Why would LeBron shoot 42-45% and only average 2 assists? First of all LeBron has great shot selection you barely see LeBron with an ill-advised drive to the basket or a bad perimeter jumper. Also James would thrive in a more fast paced game such as the one played in the 80s. After his rookie year James has never shot under 47%, league average FG% for both perimeter players and big men were higher in the 80s. James is also one of the best non-passing PG's of All-Time he has literally run the offenses of Cleveland and Miami throughout his career. He goes through stretches of games where all he does is try to find open shooters and try to get others involved, he's also great at passing out of double-teams. LeBron isn't struggling in the 80s purists always seem to think that, he's LeBron James. Basketball is about talent, James is one of the most talented players ever. I say his stats increase based on the increased pace 10-20 more possessions a game depending on what team you put him on. On a balanced team like the Cavaliers he averages 25/10/7 on 50-52% on a weak supporting cast 32/8/7 on 48-52%. LeBron isn't going to be roughed up or handchecked everytime he tries to score. Also if your putting James in a more physical era your allowing him to be more physical as well meaning less offensive fouls and more steals/blocks defensively.
Let's not act like the defense of the 80s is THAT much better than the defense that was played in the 00s or today. In the 00s you have three great defensive powerhouses (Detroit Pistons, San Antonio Spurs, Boston Celtics) with other solid defensive teams. The 00s had a little handchecking, rotating zones, more halfcourt/grind it out game. Lets not act like it wasn't physical because at the time the NBA had the reputation of the thug league with brawls and scuffles prominent. Their were also some great defensive players like KG, Duncan, Ben Wallace, Artest, Bowen. Today you have teams like the Indiana Pacers and Chicago Bulls that really lock you down loading up the strong side of the floor, playing excellent help defense. Purists act as if defense is non-existent today.


Thats exactly what im saying its not like im taking anything away from the greats in the 80s Magic Larry Dr J kareem Moses Wilkins were all great and I find it messed up when the new generation says that old school players wouldnt dominate in our league today

I'm talking about finishing at the basket. That's the initial issue. I'm not talking about his jumper.

So, you answered no to my Q?!?!
Whatever.


Ok Acorss if you have a hakeem down low its going to be a lil more difficult with Slashers and Finishers even players like Jordan and Lebron there you go

#71 OFFLINE   Bball_Jones

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:36 PM

Why would LeBron shoot 42-45% and only average 2 assists? First of all LeBron has great shot selection you barely see LeBron with an ill-advised drive to the basket or a bad perimeter jumper. Also James would thrive in a more fast paced game such as the one played in the 80s. After his rookie year James has never shot under 47%, league average FG% for both perimeter players and big men were higher in the 80s. James is also one of the best non-passing PG's of All-Time he has literally run the offenses of Cleveland and Miami throughout his career. He goes through stretches of games where all he does is try to find open shooters and try to get others involved, he's also great at passing out of double-teams. LeBron isn't struggling in the 80s purists always seem to think that, he's LeBron James. Basketball is about talent, James is one of the most talented players ever. I say his stats increase based on the increased pace 10-20 more possessions a game depending on what team you put him on. On a balanced team like the Cavaliers he averages 25/10/7 on 50-52% on a weak supporting cast 32/8/7 on 48-52%. LeBron isn't going to be roughed up or handchecked everytime he tries to score. Also if your putting James in a more physical era your allowing him to be more physical as well meaning less offensive fouls and more steals/blocks defensively.
Let's not act like the defense of the 80s is THAT much better than the defense that was played in the 00s or today. In the 00s you have three great defensive powerhouses (Detroit Pistons, San Antonio Spurs, Boston Celtics) with other solid defensive teams. The 00s had a little handchecking, rotating zones, more halfcourt/grind it out game. Lets not act like it wasn't physical because at the time the NBA had the reputation of the thug league with brawls and scuffles prominent. Their were also some great defensive players like KG, Duncan, Ben Wallace, Artest, Bowen. Today you have teams like the Indiana Pacers and Chicago Bulls that really lock you down loading up the strong side of the floor, playing excellent help defense. Purists act as if defense is non-existent today.


Agreed on everything except for the 10 rebounds, I can only see it being close to that if he plays on a really weak rebounding team with him playing less the point. Guy like Bird had a TRB% of 14.2, in 1986, playing alongside Parish and McHale, averaged 9.8 RPG in 38 min; LeBron's best TRB% is right now at 12.8 on a weak rebounding team, averages 8.2 RPG in 38.5 min. He ain't getting even close to 10 RPG playing alongside guys like Daugherty, Nance, Hot Rod, Rollins, Harper and so on... And for the 7 assists, Price and Harper would need to give up the ball more, but that could work...
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#72 OFFLINE   Bball_Jones

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:44 PM

Another thing would be prime LeBron on this Cavs team, it would be really hard and probably wouldn't get past the Pistons this year, but that team would be just ridiculous good for years to come, if they had the chemistry.

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#73 OFFLINE   Djoker

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:51 AM

^ I personally think that prime Lebron from '09 till present on that Cavs team could (not necessarily would!) win a title in 88-89 and beat the Bad Boys. There is a lot of firepower on that Cavs team and a lot toughness and defense with Lebron/Nance/Rollins. The Pistons actually didn't have anybody who could take a big SF like Bron except Dennis who at that time was still a 15-20 mpg player. Laimbeer and Mahorn just aren't quick and athletic enough. It would be a battle royale!

#74 OFFLINE   Bball_Jones

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

^ I personally think that prime Lebron from '09 till present on that Cavs team could (not necessarily would!) win a title in 88-89 and beat the Bad Boys. There is a lot of firepower on that Cavs team and a lot toughness and defense with Lebron/Nance/Rollins. The Pistons actually didn't have anybody who could take a big SF like Bron except Dennis who at that time was still a 15-20 mpg player. Laimbeer and Mahorn just aren't quick and athletic enough. It would be a battle royale!


They would've had a legit chance but I don't know, Bad Boys during those two years on their prime as a team just steamrolled through the entire league, especially in the PS, it was really freakin' hard beating them.

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#75 OFFLINE   TeoTheGreek13

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

They would've had a legit chance but I don't know, Bad Boys during those two years on their prime as a team just steamrolled through the entire league, especially in the PS, it was really freakin' hard beating them.

Yeah, I don't seee them beating the Pistons either.

In their '89 run, they swept everyone but Jordan's Bulls (with Scottie and Grant being shopmores) who managed to win two games.
And in their '90 run, only one team came even close to beat them as they knocked the Bulls off in seven. Jordan's Bulls.

You just can't beat the Bad Boys with your best player being 20 years old. That's how old James would be, had been drafted in '87.
That's underrating the Pistons IMO.

They just destroyed any opposition. It took MJ along with Pippen and Grant in their 4th season to finally bring the Bad Boys down.

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#76 OFFLINE   Bball_Jones

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:52 PM

Yeah, I don't seee them beating the Pistons either.

In their '89 run, they swept everyone but Jordan's Bulls (with Scottie and Grant being shopmores) who managed to win two games.
And in their '90 run, only one team came even close to beat them as they knocked the Bulls off in seven. Jordan's Bulls.

You just can't beat the Bad Boys with your best player being 20 years old. That's how old James would be, had been drafted in '87.
That's underrating the Pistons IMO.

They just destroyed any opposition. It took MJ along with Pippen and Grant in their 4th season to finally bring the Bad Boys down.


We were saying with prime LeBron though, but even so it would be pretty hard, that would be an awesome series though... Also that's if they had chemistry and he was there before with those same teammates.

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

We were saying with prime LeBron though, but even so it would be pretty hard, that would be an awesome series though... Also that's if they had chemistry and he was there before with those same teammates.

this is prime lebron vs prime pippen/MJ though...

Why would LeBron shoot 42-45% and only average 2 assists? First of all LeBron has great shot selection you barely see LeBron with an ill-advised drive to the basket or a bad perimeter jumper. Also James would thrive in a more fast paced game such as the one played in the 80s. After his rookie year James has never shot under 47%, league average FG% for both perimeter players and big men were higher in the 80s. James is also one of the best non-passing PG's of All-Time he has literally run the offenses of Cleveland and Miami throughout his career. He goes through stretches of games where all he does is try to find open shooters and try to get others involved, he's also great at passing out of double-teams. LeBron isn't struggling in the 80s purists always seem to think that, he's LeBron James. Basketball is about talent, James is one of the most talented players ever. I say his stats increase based on the increased pace 10-20 more possessions a game depending on what team you put him on. On a balanced team like the Cavaliers he averages 25/10/7 on 50-52% on a weak supporting cast 32/8/7 on 48-52%. LeBron isn't going to be roughed up or handchecked everytime he tries to score. Also if your putting James in a more physical era your allowing him to be more physical as well meaning less offensive fouls and more steals/blocks defensively.

less offensive fouls? lebron has like no post ...
and clyde had a lot better jumper then lebron, and a smoother finish. Lebron finishes pretty hard, but there's no way he gets 7apg. in that era, the defenses didn't collapse because of the great rim defenders. all Lebron does is try to get inside, so obviously no issues with "shot selection"...
I have his rebounds increasing, but his FG% is going to drop due to being challenged by far bigger, far more physical centers. even with a more talented cast, his finishes will be much more contests. he might not be roughed up if he shoots a lot more outside, but if he goes in for layups without using any post 15x/g...

#78 OFFLINE   ISOMELO

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

this is prime lebron vs prime pippen/MJ though...


less offensive fouls? lebron has like no post ...
and clyde had a lot better jumper then lebron, and a smoother finish. Lebron finishes pretty hard, but there's no way he gets 7apg. in that era, the defenses didn't collapse because of the great rim defenders. all Lebron does is try to get inside, so obviously no issues with "shot selection"...
I have his rebounds increasing, but his FG% is going to drop due to being challenged by far bigger, far more physical centers. even with a more talented cast, his finishes will be much more contests. he might not be roughed up if he shoots a lot more outside, but if he goes in for layups without using any post 15x/g...

LeBron James post game may not be pretty, but it is pretty effective. Clyde did not have a better jumper than LeBron, and I don't care about the "smoothness" of a finish I care about the effectiveness. If Clyde can average 27, 8 and 6 on 50% in the 80s so could LeBron, if Dominique Wilkins could average 30 in the 80s so could James, James is better than them. Defensive collapses happen in every era no matter who's at the basket, when James drives the natural instinct of a defender especially in transition is to help out on James leaving an open man. LeBron isn't going to average 2 assists a game, that is extremely far-fetched. LeBron is unselfish and has tremendous passing skills I don't see how he wouldn't average 6-8 assists. These bigs aren't stopping LeBron from shooting 50% plus, Drexler, Jordan, King, Dantley, Bird all did it and I don't see how LeBron wouldn't do it when he is just as talented as those guys. You act as if James has no jumper he does more than just get inside, he has an uncanny ability to hit tough jumpers and has tremendous range.
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#79 OFFLINE   Djoker

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

this is prime lebron vs prime pippen/MJ though...


less offensive fouls? lebron has like no post ...
and clyde had a lot better jumper then lebron, and a smoother finish. Lebron finishes pretty hard, but there's no way he gets 7apg. in that era, the defenses didn't collapse because of the great rim defenders. all Lebron does is try to get inside, so obviously no issues with "shot selection"...
I have his rebounds increasing, but his FG% is going to drop due to being challenged by far bigger, far more physical centers. even with a more talented cast, his finishes will be much more contests. he might not be roughed up if he shoots a lot more outside, but if he goes in for layups without using any post 15x/g...


Less offensive fouls were called back then. Like FAR LESS...

In what universe does Clyde have a better jumper than Lebron? Or even close to the same jumper?

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:13 PM

LeBron James post game may not be pretty, but it is pretty effective. Clyde did not have a better jumper than LeBron, and I don't care about the "smoothness" of a finish I care about the effectiveness. If Clyde can average 27, 8 and 6 on 50% in the 80s so could LeBron, if Dominique Wilkins could average 30 in the 80s so could James, James is better than them. Defensive collapses happen in every era no matter who's at the basket, when James drives the natural instinct of a defender especially in transition is to help out on James leaving an open man. LeBron isn't going to average 2 assists a game, that is extremely far-fetched. LeBron is unselfish and has tremendous passing skills I don't see how he wouldn't average 6-8 assists. These bigs aren't stopping LeBron from shooting 50% plus, Drexler, Jordan, King, Dantley, Bird all did it and I don't see how LeBron wouldn't do it when he is just as talented as those guys. You act as if James has no jumper he does more than just get inside, he has an uncanny ability to hit tough jumpers and has tremendous range.

Lebron is <<< MJ...and Bird. Bird's jumper is #1 GOAT?
A lot of these guys had different strategies at getting to the hoop/shooting, and LBJ doesn't play ISO at any distance with J.




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