Jump to content


Photo

Why Bill Russell Has A Great Case Over Michael Jordan As The Greatest Of All Time


  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#1 ONLINE   The Future

The Future

    #RipCity #brehsquad

  • Global Moderators
  • 27,269 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 03:21 PM

*
POPULAR

Ok. Here's the first of the series called "Best Ever" in which i will present 10 people with equally good cases for the honor of GOAT like Jordan. Here it goes.






I start today a new special series called "Best Ever" in which i will point out the cases for some all time greats to be argued as the top player in the league's history.

Although Michael Jordan is universally claimed to be the greatest basketball player to step on a hardwood (with good reasons), there're other players who deserve to be called like that too.

The legend with whom, i will begin is Bill Russell.

The famous Celtics center of the 60's is well respected by his opponents and among the older fans, who continued the dominance of the big men, en route revolutionized the NBA, added new dimensions to the game, accomplished much and did enough to earn his spot among the legends.

Without further ado, here are the ten reasons why Russell was the greatest player in the NBA History!





1.Defensive Dominance

Posted Image

Bill Russell was arguably the greatest defender in the NBA History. He revolutionized defensive concepts.His dominance on this side of the court were one of the keys for his team's amazing success and proved you can be a superstar while dominating on the not so popular side.

He was one of the physically most gifted players of all time. He had terrific athleticism, could jump really high, had underrated strength, was extremely mobile and versatile center with a longer reach than Kareem.He knew to use his advantages well, because he was arguably the most smartest player to play the game.

Russell's impact on defense was better than anyone else's. He turned the Celtics from a high scoring team that averaged more than 130 points in average, to a defensive minded team in which he was the cornerstone.

He created many fast brakes with his abilities on the other end, he fired the perfect outlet passes and in that he launched scoring chances for his team mates. He contributed for the easy points without even making an attempt at the rim.

Bill created the fundamentals of the blocked shots. He was arguably the best shot blocker of any time. He mastered three things in order to stop so many shots:1)perfect timing, 2)not fouling the shooter and 3)blocked the shot so he could grab or his team to get the ball.

There wasn't a more intimating presence on defense than him, ever. He intimated guys, forced them to shot badly, wasn't fooled and he knew everyone's favorite spot because he did an analyze on every player three months before he joined the NBA.

His team mates forced their opponents to switch on him, because he was that good in stopping them down. Also, he excelled in one on one defense. He was arguably the finest one on one stopper. He held the great Chamberlain below his averages, and so he did with other guys like Pettit etc.





2.Winning

Posted Image


Winning is one of the most important aspects of these kind of debates, and this is where Bill Russell excels more than anyone has ever excelled. He's arguably the biggest winner in the NBA History.

Russell won eleven championship in the course of his thirteen year career. He was the cornerstone of arguably the greatest dynasty in sports history, the Boston Celtics, the franchise with the top amount of championship (11).

On his way to the titles, he led his team to wins over his opponents teams led by basketball legends like Wilt, West, Baylor, Pettit and so on. He delivered with amazing clutch performances, as he elevated himself in the post season, finals and in the crucial game sevens.

The Celtics never won a title, neither did came close to win it all until Bill arrived on scene. He worked hard to get to those titles and there's no doubt that he was the biggest winner of all time.







3.Basketball IQ

Posted Image

There wasn't arguably a more smarter person to play professional basketball than Bill Russell. His intelligence was off the charts. He took full advantage of it and turned it into success for multiple years.

He was known for using his advantages to beat his opponents. He understood the fundamentals of the game well too. He knew his opponents game because three months before he joined the NBA, he made analyzes on all the players.

Russell usually picked a good spot before he blocked a shot. He made quality plays all the times. He always made adjustments when it was needed.

Bill would even made some statements during the tough playoff series in which he gives impression to his opponents that they have done a good thing. So, yes, his high basketball IQ played a large role of why he was such a great player.







4.Mental Edge
Posted Image

Bill Russell had a bigger mental edge than anyone who has stepped on a basketball court, period. He was known for playing mind games with his opponents, often beating and psyching them like no else ever did.

He wrote a book during the '66-67 season, in which he wrote how he used to beat his opponents with his psychological edge as he had three laws to that. They were called "Russell Laws" because he invented them.

Bill made adjustments in order how to stop the other team from winning against him, especially in playoff times. When you add his edge in terms of intelligence, he maximized his advantages and topped just about anyone.





5.Clutch Performance
Posted Image

Although he's underrated in terms of coming in the clutch, Bill Russell was arguably the greatest clutch performer in the NBA History as his performances in all of the Game Seven he played through his career.

In those ten games, he has a perfect winning record of 10-0. Here are the stats from those those matches.

-19 points, 31 rebounds

-18 points, 32 rebounds

-22 points, 35 rebounds

-19 points, 22 rebounds

-30 points, 40 rebounds

-20 points, 24 rebounds

-15 points, 29 rebounds

-25 points, 32 rebounds

-12 points, 26 rebounds

-6 points, 21 rebounds



Overall Averages:18.6 points, 29.2 rebounds



Not bad isn't it? He additionally elevated his play from the regular season in the playoffs and finals too. Here are some more stats about Russell.

Regular Season Averages:15.1 points, 22.5 boards, 4.4 assists, 44% FG, 56.1% FT

----------Playoff Averages:16.2 points, 24.9 boards, 4.7 assists, 43.0% FG, 60.3% FT

----------Finals Averages:16.1 points, 30.2 boards, 5.8 assists, N/A FG%, 53.1% FT



So, in general, Russell's numbers elevate when it's mattered most.







6.Team Superstar

Posted Image


"There are two types of superstars. One makes himself look good at the expense of the other guys on the floor. But there's another type who makes the players around him look better than they are, and that's the type Russell was."

This is a famous quote by Don Nelson in the interview on Boston Herald. Indeed, he's right. Bill was the game's first and arguably the first team superstar in the NBA History.

He was one of the rare legends who had a team first mindset. He never focused on statistics nor or records. His only focus was winning and that only. Russell excelled at making the others around him better.

It's no wonder that many of his team mates are part in the Hall Of Fame. They didn't carry him. It was the other way around. That's why even guys like KC Jones who didn't even average more than 10 points are now part of the Hall.

Like his former team mate Sanders say, Bill had such a mentality that he thought he should win every game he plays in, regardless with which team he played in.

He did all of the little things, dominated in the course of his illustrated career, made everyone around him better, excelled in the clutch and is now a well respected legend.

Other than that, he accomplished much and can be argued as the best ever in many categories. It's a good reason why Russell was the greatest team superstar to step on a basketball hardwood.







7.Top One Club Man Ever

Posted Image



Nobody meant more to a franchise in the NBA History than Bill Russell. The Celtics weren't a franchise who won a championship in the league before the legendary center arrived in town.

They were also a high scoring team with an offensive mentality as they were scoring more than 130+ points in average led by the likes of Sharman and Cousy. However, not even they could bring success for so long neither get to the Finals.

Bill Russell changed all of that. His domination on the defensive end, glass, his ability to create so many fast brakes and good offensive production in terms of mostly outlet passes made the key difference.

He made others around him better. That's why there were a lot of Hall Of Fame players who built their legacy because of him. I know you will criticize Bill for his average abilities on offense, but this wasn't true.

As John Havlicek stated in his book. When he was retired, Hondo stated that Russell's passing lacked in the team because there wasn't a great one on one player in those average offensively teams.

However, when he was playing, the Celtics weren't scoring that many points and were never that terrific on offense. Instead, they were average. But, they won eleven titles during thirteen years in which Bill established as the cornerstone of the famous dynasty.

That's why he was the greatest one club man of all time.







8.Accomplishments

Posted Image

Bill Russell has a nice filled career resume with lots of accomplishments. The most known of them is the fact that he won eleven titles, which is an all time record and a feat that might not be matched for long time.

Here is the list of his achievements

11× NBA Champion (1957, 1959–1966, 1968–1969)
5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1958, 1961–1963,1965)
12× NBA All-Star (1958–1969)
3× All-NBA First Team (1959, 1963, 1965)
8× All-NBA Second Team (1958, 1960–1962, 1964,1966–1968)
NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
#6 Retired by Boston Celtics
It's an impressive resume. He also holds numerous records such as most consecutive games with at least 20+ rebounds in the Finals History, highest rebounding game in the Finals with 40 boards (he did that twice) and so on.
He does have a nice career filled resume when you take in consideration what else he could have had there been awards like Defensive Player Of The Year, All-Defensive Teams, blocks, steals, Finals MVP etc in his career. Nonetheless, his achievements are more good.






9.Leadership

Posted Image

Bill Russell was arguably the greatest leader in the NBA History. He was a team superstar who had only one thing on his mind and that was to win. He remains as the biggest winner of all time, possibly in sports history as well.

Russell was a coach of a floor himself too, who led by example, made everyone around him better and he never cared about individual achievements. His focus was to win and nobody did it better than him.

Also, his leadership was more than crucial. That showed up pretty much when Red Auerbach retired, and set Bill to be the new Celtics coach. The result? Oh, it was pretty hard at the end.

Boston was struggling through a lot of injuries, the players aged and they lost to the upcoming 67' Sixers who were destined to become a dynasty. Next season, their chances increased when they were leading three games to one but then again, they just fell.

Powered by Russ, the Celtics pushed this series to seven series and surpassed the Sixers and crashed the Lakers again en route to another title. Bill Russell was the leader behind these runs, who as a player coach led the Celtics to two sweet championships.

That is a proof enough of just how good leader he was out there.







10.Ability To Play In Any Era

Posted Image

Bill Russell is one those guys who was capable to play in any era. He was first of all, one of the physically most gifted players in the NBA History. He had nice athleticism, could jump high (former world champion), had higher reach than Kareem, underrated strength.

He was extremely mobile, versatile and quick for a center. Additionally, there wasn't arguably a more smarter man to play professional basketball than him. He also had an overlooked mental edge, as he psyched and intimated his opponents in many ways.

Russell's productiveness is more than obvious. He was a dominant defensive player, who excelled on the glass, was a productive offensive player, a guy who made everything around him better and a coaches' player who never cared about stats.

He'd be just as equally good in any era. He had a lot of tools to work with and he knew to use them smartly. That's why he'd excel in any decade. Oh, and about his lack of weight. He'd just go to a gym and add some muscle.

A great player could play at any time and he's one of them.



11.Rebounding

Posted Image

Rebounding is one of the most crucial parts of a basketball game and this is another category where Bill Russell excels in. He's arguably the greatest rebounder in the NBA History.

He was also the most clutch presence on the glass, who provided ton of boards when you needed him most. Here's the proof about all of that below.

Regular season averages-22.5 rebounds

-----Post season averages-24.9 rebounds

-----Game Seven averages-29.2 rebounds

-------------Finals averages-30.2 rebounds

See what i mean. His performance on the boards keeps getting better and better from regular season to the highest stages and most important moments. He also holds numerous records to prove that.

He ranks second in his career in total boards and average with five rebounding crowns. Not bad. He's the playoffs all time leader in both total and average with comfortable lead over others. He still has the edge in the Finals History over others too, where he was the best.

Russell for example had a streak of at least 12+ rebounding games with at least 20 boards in the Finals. He holds the biggest totals in a four game series too. He was a remarkable!





12.Quotes On Bill Russell

Posted Image

"There are two types of superstars. One makes himself look good at the expense of the other guys on the floor. But there's another type who makes the players around him look better than they are, and that's the type Russell was."

---Don Nelson on Bill Russell in an interview with Boston Herald





" To Bill, every game-every championship game-was a challenge, a test to his manhood. He took the game so seriously that he threw up in the locker room before almost every game.

"But I tend to look at basketball as a game, not a life-or-death struggle. I don't need scoring titles or NBA Championships to prove that girls, friends, the beach, freedom-to get emotionally wrapped up in basketball.

"I think Bill knew I felt that way, and I think he both envied and resented my attitude. On the one hand, I think he wished he could learn to take things easier, too; on the other hand, I think he may have felt that with my natural ability and willingness to work hard, my teams could have won an NBA Championship every year if I was as totally committed to victory as he was.

"I wish I had won all those Championships, but I really think I grew as a man in defeat that Russell did in victory."




------Wilt Chamberlain





I think Russell was the foxiest, smartest, meanest player psychologically that ever played the game. He had a book on everybody. He knew where this guy like to take a shot. He took defense of basketball and turned it into an art form



-------Tom Heinsohn, former team mate





Russell had an attitude and most people would say just playing and winning attitude. That doesn't really describe at all. He thought he was the best defensive player who played.

He also thought he was the best all-around player to play the game. And he thought that every team he plays on should win every single game.




----Tom "Satch" Sanders
  • Tony Hoops, Chief Shaqaho, SportsFan93 and 7 others like this

#2 OFFLINE   Stefan

Stefan

    Greatest Poster of All-Time?

  • Members
  • 6,378 posts

Posted 31 July 2011 - 03:25 PM

Great job .I enjoyed reading it :crazydance: :rockout:




:banana:
  • Chief Shaqaho likes this

#3 OFFLINE   Chief Shaqaho

Chief Shaqaho

    HN's Rodney Dangerfield

  • Members
  • 7,468 posts


  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 03:25 PM

U Reeeeal Official With These Articles, Mane...

Clips GM

1_medium.gif2_medium.gif


#4 ONLINE   The Future

The Future

    #RipCity #brehsquad

  • Global Moderators
  • 27,269 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 03:27 PM

Great job .I enjoyed reading it :crazydance: :rockout:




:banana:


Thanks bro. This means a lot. :shakeshout: :shakeshout: :crazydance: :crazydance:

U Reeeeal Official With These Articles, Mane...


Hahah

Maybe i'll write an article on Kobe one day...about similar thing but not now.

#5 OFFLINE   Vino

Vino

    Walt Frazier: Pure Style.

  • Members
  • 7,739 posts


  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 03:53 PM

Nice performance and that about a man who truly deserves it.

LeBron+James+Miami+Heat+v+Phoenix+Suns+-

 

Article by Vino and Djoker on Greatest Title Teams ever: http://hoops-nation....ino-and-djoker


#6 OFFLINE   Chief Shaqaho

Chief Shaqaho

    HN's Rodney Dangerfield

  • Members
  • 7,468 posts


  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 03:57 PM

Thanks bro. This means a lot. :shakeshout: :shakeshout: :crazydance: :crazydance:



Hahah

Maybe i'll write an article on Kobe one day...about similar thing but not now.




Nah, I'd Rather See One About The Toughest aka Aggressive Like Barkley (On The Court.) Or Worst (Off The Court...Legal Troubles/Drug Addictions & Etc.) To Ever Play In The League...Haha

Clips GM

1_medium.gif2_medium.gif


#7 ONLINE   Djoker

Djoker

    Enforcer

  • Global Moderators
  • 14,424 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 04:34 PM

Awesome article! :clap:

I have to go out now, but I'll provide more feedback and argue a few of your points tomorrow. :wink:

#8 OFFLINE   Ant™

Ant™

    Hoops-Nation Illuminati

  • Members
  • 13,508 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 09:35 PM

Damn well written article. Good work man! I enjoyed reading it!:show::6pack:

tumblr_mqs9id2iW91qd9agqo7_r1_250.gif

 


#9 ONLINE   Jay

Jay

    Visionary

  • Members
  • 19,625 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:19 PM

He is not the G.O.A.T.

1.True
2.true
3. true
4. True
5. True
6. True
7. FALSE.
8. Because of his team.
9. True.
10. Whatever. I don't buy that crap.

Great Player.
Best defensive player.
Great rebounder.

BUT

The goat is complete and on the offensive end rusell is not the legendry.


HORRIBLE ON THE OFFENSIVE END.

44 percent Fg. Worse than kobe.

No way he should have that less of a fg.

15 points on 44 percent is not Goat.

Remember:
GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

There are guys that can rebound better than him.
Good defence.
But there offensive game is much better.

He is just not that good of a player.

His team did not have as great compition.

Bill sharman.
Bob cousy.
tom h.

Put him in the 90's he would have 1 ring if lucky.
Not as much of rebound either.

Forget player. He is not even the greatest center of all time.

1. Kareem
2. Hakeem
3. Shaquille

All great Rebounders.
2 are good on defence.
But there magnificent on the offensive end also and bill is not.

He is VERY overated.
  • Team Player likes this

tumblr_n8mwutxaIF1qm4qqco1_500.gif

S/O to TGIA for letting me cop the gif


#10 ONLINE   The Future

The Future

    #RipCity #brehsquad

  • Global Moderators
  • 27,269 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:15 PM

Nice performance and that about a man who truly deserves it.


Thanks

Damn well written article. Good work man! I enjoyed reading it!:show::6pack:


Thanks, again. Glad you enjoyed reading it

#11 ONLINE   The Future

The Future

    #RipCity #brehsquad

  • Global Moderators
  • 27,269 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:17 PM

Awesome article! :clap:

I have to go out now, but I'll provide more feedback and argue a few of your points tomorrow. :wink:


I know you'll go out for the offense... i know that. Thanks for the read and comment anyway

#12 ONLINE   The Future

The Future

    #RipCity #brehsquad

  • Global Moderators
  • 27,269 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:44 PM

He is not the G.O.A.T.

1.True
2.true
3. true
4. True
5. True
6. True
7. FALSE.
8. Because of his team.
9. True.
10. Whatever. I don't buy that crap.


Bill Russell was arguably the greatest one club man of all time. He meant more to his team and franchise than anyone ever did. He won eleven championships, made the likes of KC Jones, Sanders and all around him better despite not having the things needed to get in the HOF.Before hin they could win anything. After him they win eleven titles. He was the real leader.



Great Player.
Best defensive player.
Great rebounder.

BUT

The goat is complete and on the offensive end rusell is not the legendry.


HORRIBLE ON THE OFFENSIVE END.

44 percent Fg. Worse than kobe.

No way he should have that less of a fg.

15 points on 44 percent is not Goat.

Really? Horrible on the offensive end? Far from that. I understand that, but how about the fact that he was a prolific passing center? 4.4 assists, 4.7 and then incredible 5.8 assists in the Finals.

He found team mates consistently, led them to easy scoring chances. Since Cousy retired, he ranked top 10 in assists consistently and twice in the top 5. That's far from horrible.

Hondo said once in his book that they weren't missing Russell only on defense and rebounding, they missed his outlet passes, his passes of the high post since they didn't have a great one on one player. You overlook that.



Remember:
GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

There are guys that can rebound better than him.
Good defence.
But there offensive game is much better.

He is just not that good of a player.

His team did not have as great compition.

Bill sharman.
Bob cousy.
tom h.


Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman did nothing before Russell arrived. Not even with Red who's in the HOF too, they failed to reach the Finals, not to mention about winning or something.

During the '58 Finals, Russell went down with an injury. His team lost the crucial games despite having good supporting cast. After Bill retired, his former team missed the playoffs despite being with the likes of Hondo etc.

Btw. There was a loaded HOF talent in the league because there were 8-12 teams which meant there were at least 1 HOFers on each team. There weren't failure teams back then, not even high school and college players jumping in too quickly.

The NBA was a league for men, not boys like now. His team didn't have competition? Lakers with Baylor and West, Wilt and his teams, Oscar and Royals etc. They were all topped in close games and sometimes they weren't lucky but he beat them.




Put him in the 90's he would have 1 ring if lucky.

This is another what if. Put Jordan in the 60's and he'd been a terrific individual player with only 1 ring. Ifs don't have really much point in this argument.


Not as much of rebound either.

Forget player. He is not even the greatest center of all time.

1. Kareem
2. Hakeem
3. Shaquille

All great Rebounders.
2 are good on defence.

When you want to praise people, you don't put in bad things about them like you did with Shaq. Btw, this leads me that Russell's weakness was equal to Shaq's in the regular season. However on the biggest stages, they both didn't have weaknesses at al.

Russell averaged dozens of assists, led twice in the playoffs, scored 70.2% FG during the '65 Finals, averaged 23.6 PPG as a leader etc. He even took over offensively.

On the other hand, Shaq was the best rebounder in modern history during playoff time. He leads all in offensive, defensive rebounds, ranks third on the all time list and is top 5 in blocks. So far away from not being a rebounder and shot blocker.


See what i mean.

But there magnificent on the offensive end also and bill is not.

He is VERY overated.

A case can be made for everyone with decent arguments. Relax



There you go

#13 ONLINE   The Future

The Future

    #RipCity #brehsquad

  • Global Moderators
  • 27,269 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:58 PM

Btw, i updated my article

#14 ONLINE   Djoker

Djoker

    Enforcer

  • Global Moderators
  • 14,424 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 01 August 2011 - 07:44 AM

Ok, I think Russell benefited from relatively weak competition especially before 1967. Allow me to explain...

There were only 2 teams that presented any challenge to Russell's Celtics during his 8 straight runs to the title, Wilt's Warriors/Sixers and West/Baylor Lakers.

Now, Wilt's supporting cast paled in comparison to Russell's. It is misleading to use all-star appearances which people often use in Wilt-Russell debates to prove that Wilt's team was just as good. With 4-5 teams in each conference, every team will have an average of 2-3 all-stars. Basically, every above average started would make the team. It is important to acknowledge the fact that Wilt before coming to LA really never played with anyone as good as Cousy, Havlicek, and Sam Jones. Russell played with all 3 at one point! Not to mention guys like KC Jones, Tom Heinshohn, Wayne Embry etc all of whom where very good players in their own rights.

West/Baylor's Lakers also weren't that much of a threat. After 1963, Baylor was never really quite the same because of his injury and LA was badly equipped at the C position (kind of like the Heat now) and were murdered by Russell on the boards and couldn't defend the post.

Also, in the Wilt-Russell matchups, I think Russell's intelligence and will to win are overstated because Wilt was extremely selfish and didn't know how to use his teammates till 1967 and then rarely ever did it again. In comparison to Wilt which is whom Bill was compared with, everyone would look like a great teammate! If Wilt wasn't a selfish player, Russell would be lucky to win more than 4 or 5 titles even with a better cast than Wilt's. Wilt was a far better player overall and that's why I don't think Russell can be GOAT. If player A > player B, can player B be the GOAT? :tongueout:

And that whole "Russell made his teammates HOFers...". I don't buy it! MJ won 6 titles in the 90's (just as difficult a feat as 11 in the 60's) but Kukoc, Kerr, Longley etc are not HOFers... Pippen and Rodman would have made it regardless. Magic won 5 and made 9 finals in the 80's... Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, Norm Nixon etc are not HOFers.

Russell also won 9 of his titles playing 2 rounds in the playoffs. It isn't the same playing 10-14 games in the playoffs vs 20+...

Also, Russell was never a good scorer. 16ppg on 43% shooting in the playoffs is pretty bad. He couldn't take a game over offensively (one or 2 instances don't prove anything) and I that's why I don't think he can be considered GOAT. His passing is nice but Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem all averaged 4+ assists a game in their peak in the postseason along with scoring 30+ ppg on 50+% shooting...

#15 ONLINE   The Future

The Future

    #RipCity #brehsquad

  • Global Moderators
  • 27,269 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 01 August 2011 - 08:12 AM

Ok, I think Russell benefited from relatively weak competition especially before 1967. Allow me to explain...

There were only 2 teams that presented any challenge to Russell's Celtics during his 8 straight runs to the title, Wilt's Warriors/Sixers and West/Baylor Lakers.

Fair enough. However, don't forget the St.Lois Hawks who were a good team as well and the Royals led by Oscar were still decent threats. However,i see your point and i agree but it was far from being weak. Those teams did push the C's to 7 game series, which means that they were weak at all.

Now, Wilt's supporting cast paled in comparison to Russell's. It is misleading to use all-star appearances which people often use in Wilt-Russell debates to prove that Wilt's team was just as good. With 4-5 teams in each conference, every team will have an average of 2-3 all-stars. Basically, every above average started would make the team. It is important to acknowledge the fact that Wilt before coming to LA really never played with anyone as good as Cousy, Havlicek, and Sam Jones. Russell played with all 3 at one point! Not to mention guys like KC Jones, Tom Heinshohn, Wayne Embry etc all of whom where very good players in their own rights.

Interesting. Paul Arizin, Tom Gola and few others were All-Stars. Sure, not as good as but still solid. Those teams were built around Wilt. He'd either lead them to success with his sick stats, or sometimes enable his team mates to do something more in a game.

However, those C's team weren't as good as offensively as they should have been because they had good offensive players and they were barely average on offense. It was with defense how the C's win and Russell was the man behind those runs.




West/Baylor's Lakers also weren't that much of a threat. After 1963, Baylor was never really quite the same because of his injury and LA was badly equipped at the C position (kind of like the Heat now) and were murdered by Russell on the boards and couldn't defend the post.

Agreed. They lacked a center and Baylor had a knee injury that changed him for ever.


Also, in the Wilt-Russell matchups, I think Russell's intelligence and will to win are overstated because Wilt was extremely selfish and didn't know how to use his teammates till 1967 and then rarely ever did it again. In comparison to Wilt which is whom Bill was compared with, everyone would look like a great teammate! If Wilt wasn't a selfish player, Russell would be lucky to win more than 4 or 5 titles even with a better cast than Wilt's. Wilt was a far better player overall and that's why I don't think Russell can be GOAT. If player A > player B, can player B be the GOAT? :tongueout:

I don't like using what ifs in arguments (although i used one) but this doesn't hold much water. If Russell was averaging 25 points, Wilt wouldn't have even dreaming about a title...or if Baylor was healthy, he'd win at least one title in his prime. So this pretty much isn't a good argument.

Personally, Wilt was a beast of his own and so was Russell. That's only a matter of opinion which i won't even try to change.




And that whole "Russell made his teammates HOFers...". I don't buy it! MJ won 6 titles in the 90's (just as difficult a feat as 11 in the 60's) but Kukoc, Kerr, Longley etc are not HOFers... Pippen and Rodman would have made it regardless. Magic won 5 and made 9 finals in the 80's... Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, Norm Nixon etc are not HOFers.

Russell did make his team mates better, just like Jordan and Magic did. Stars are making others around him better and Russell made his team mates better. Most of those players formed their legacy thanks to BR and that dynasty.



Russell also won 9 of his titles playing 2 rounds in the playoffs. It isn't the same playing 10-14 games in the playoffs vs 20+...

Fair enough


Also, Russell was never a good scorer. 16ppg on 43% shooting in the playoffs is pretty bad. He couldn't take a game over offensively (one or 2 instances don't prove anything) and I that's why I don't think he can be considered GOAT. His passing is nice but Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem all averaged 4+ assists a game in their peak in the postseason along with scoring 30+ ppg on 50+% shooting...

But Russell was a great offensive player. He ranked top 10 and few times top 5 in assists, he was a two time leader in the playoffs too. He took over twice as the leading scorer, so he could score but decided to play differently.






Fair enough Danko. It's a respectable case for Russell here and for others can be made one too

#16 ONLINE   Jay

Jay

    Visionary

  • Members
  • 19,625 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 01 August 2011 - 08:33 AM

5 assists is good.

But a center shooting 44% is not the greatest of all time.

15 on 44%

Greatest defensive center.
Great rebounder.

But greatest of all time. I don't think so!

tumblr_n8mwutxaIF1qm4qqco1_500.gif

S/O to TGIA for letting me cop the gif


#17 ONLINE   Djoker

Djoker

    Enforcer

  • Global Moderators
  • 14,424 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 01 August 2011 - 08:51 AM

Fair enough. However, don't forget the St.Lois Hawks who were a good team as well and the Royals led by Oscar were still decent threats. However,i see your point and i agree but it was far from being weak. Those teams did push the C's to 7 game series, which means that they were weak at all.


The fact that those teams made it to 7 games vs Boston is a testament to just how great Wilt and West were. As for Wilt's 25.7ppg playoff average vs Russell, I'm not sure about this number + Wilt was really really bad in 68 and 69. His playoff numbers from 60-67 are about 30ppg and 30 rpg against Russell. He outrebounded and outscored Russell every time they met and shot a much higher %. People talk about how Russell slowed Wilt but no one talks about how Russell couldn't shoot 40% against Wilt in a lot of games!

Interesting. Paul Arizin, Tom Gola and few others were All-Stars. Sure, not as good as but still solid. Those teams were built around Wilt. He'd either lead them to success with his sick stats, or sometimes enable his team mates to do something more in a game.


Arizin and Gola were above average starters. They were good players but nowhere near Hondo (best SF in the league), Cousy (#2 PG in the league behind Oscar) and Sam Jones (#2 SG in the league behind West).

However, those C's team weren't as good as offensively as they should have been because they had good offensive players and they were barely average on offense. It was with defense how the C's win and Russell was the man behind those runs.


It's true they won with their defense but Heinsohn and Hondo were great defenders as well. It wasn't all Russell + Hondo and Jones are the ones who pretty much took over as the main options offensively from 66 onwards. They are also among the most clutch players in history. Hondo and Jones made those huge plays in the closing moments of games...

I don't like using what ifs in arguments (although i used one) but this doesn't hold much water. If Russell was averaging 25 points, Wilt wouldn't have even dreaming about a title...or if Baylor was healthy, he'd win at least one title in his prime. So this pretty much isn't a good argument.


You really think if Wilt and Russell had the exact same teammates, Russell's team would win? Wilt would outscore him by 15ppg, shoot 10% better from the field, and outrebound him like he always does... Even Bill's instincts and those intangibles wouldn't be able to make up for that kind of difference! Wilt > Russell to me and that's why Russell cannot be GOAT! :tongueout:

Personally, Wilt was a beast of his own and so was Russell. That's only a matter of opinion which i won't even try to change. Russell did make his team mates better, just like Jordan and Magic did. Stars are making others around him better and Russell made his team mates better. Most of those players formed their legacy thanks to BR and that dynasty.


Yea but how come SO MANY of his teammates are in HOF but not Jordan's or Magic's? Maybe they were really good players on their own...

But Russell was a great offensive player. He ranked top 10 and few times top 5 in assists, he was a two time leader in the playoffs too. He took over twice as the leading scorer, so he could score but decided to play differently.


You can't say because he took over once or twice that he can always do it. With his low shooting %, it probably would hurt his team if he tried to take over... He wasn't a good let alone great scorer. As for passing, many C's have averaged Russell-type assists. Nothing special there imo.

#18 ONLINE   The Future

The Future

    #RipCity #brehsquad

  • Global Moderators
  • 27,269 posts

  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 01 August 2011 - 09:11 AM

The fact that those teams made it to 7 games vs Boston is a testament to just how great Wilt and West were. As for Wilt's 25.7ppg playoff average vs Russell, I'm not sure about this number + Wilt was really really bad in 68 and 69. His playoff numbers from 60-67 are about 30ppg and 30 rpg against Russell. He outrebounded and outscored Russell every time they met and shot a much higher %. People talk about how Russell slowed Wilt but no one talks about how Russell couldn't shoot 40% against Wilt in a lot of games!





That's in their playoff match ups. How about FG%? 30 points is nice but if it's less than 50, it's a good defensive effort. For example, Wilt scored 33 vs Russ in '62 EDF but he shot less than 45% in those games. Efficiency holds some weight here.

No one talks about Bill shooting 40% vs Wilt because nobody talks about him holding the all time highest FG% too. Btw, what are Russell's stats from 60-67 vs Wilt?

There were even newspaper articles on Google, which all point out that Russell did hold Wilt well and when the game was done, he let him to get his points and the idea for him to think that he won the individual battle.




Arizin and Gola were above average starters. They were good players but nowhere near Hondo (best SF in the league), Cousy (#2 PG in the league behind Oscar) and Sam Jones (#2 SG in the league behind West).


Ok. But Hondo wasn't the best SF until 69 (maybe '68) and Jones was the 2nd best SG in the league at that time.

But then again, why did the C's miss the playoffs when Russell retired?


It's true they won with their defense but Heinsohn and Hondo were great defenders as well. It wasn't all Russell + Hondo and Jones are the ones who pretty much took over as the main options offensively from 66 onwards. They are also among the most clutch players in history. Hondo and Jones made those huge plays in the closing moments of games...


But you still overlook the fact that Bill Russell ranked top 10 in assists for years. He was also the most clutch performer ever too.

Jones and Hondo were great in the clutch, but they were the supporting case behind Russell, period.




You really think if Wilt and Russell had the exact same teammates, Russell's team would win? Wilt would outscore him by 15ppg, shoot 10% better from the field, and outrebound him like he always does... Even Bill's instincts and those intangibles wouldn't be able to make up for that kind of difference! Wilt > Russell to me and that's why Russell cannot be GOAT! :tongueout:


Wilt would ruin those teams. That's right. Even Wilt said himself that he wouldn't do as good if he switched with Russell... so this doesn't mean a lot to mean.

And that Wilt>Russell is individual opinion.



Yea but how come SO MANY of his teammates are in HOF but not Jordan's or Magic's? Maybe they were really good players on their own...


I'm saying that he as a great superstar made his team mates around and he was only second to Magic in that aspect.



You can't say because he took over once or twice that he can always do it. With his low shooting %, it probably would hurt his team if he tried to take over... He wasn't a good let alone great scorer. As for passing, many C's have averaged Russell-type assists. Nothing special there imo.


But Russell took over offensively for his teams in some Finals and he led them to win. He didn't hurt when he took over in Game 7 of the 1962 Finals.

But if many C's have averaged those numbers, why doesn't Russ get the credit? He was actually a very good offensive player who improved his weaknesses like Shaq did.

Not so perfect but still, amazing improvement when you take in consideration everything.


Nice to have a debate with you.

#19 ONLINE   Jay

Jay

    Visionary

  • Members
  • 19,625 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 01 August 2011 - 09:24 AM

Bill Russel Averaged more than 5 assists on twice.
So did Kareem, while putting up points also.

1.
15 points on 44% is horrible. For a Center or Pf. 5 assists doesn't make it sound even a bit better.

2.
His Freethrow Percentage is horrible also. 56%.

3.
He was not good on the offensive end. Period. And If you have that kind of an offensive end YOU ARE NOT THE GRETEST OF ALL TIME.

4.
Compition. Look at some of his compition that makes rusell look good.

Dennis Awtrey: 6'11" - was drafted after Russell actually retired. (1970)
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0" - drafted in Russell's last year. (1968)
Jim Eakins: 6'11" - Drafted in 1968 after spending most of his better days in the ABA.
Hank Finkel: 7'0" - may have combated Russell for his last three years before transferring himself to Boston and winning a championship there.
Swede Halbrook: 7'3" - drafted in the same year as Bill but lasted only two seasons.
Bob Lanier: 6'11" - never made the 60's he was in the 70's.
Jim McDaniels: 6'11" - boy he was drafted in 1971.
Otto Moore: 6'11" - drafted in 1968 Russell's last year. (1968-69 draft is done in the off season so his rookie year was Russell's last)
Dave Newmark: 7'0" - drafted in 1968 Russell's last year. (1968-69 draft is done in the off season so his rookie year was Russell's last)
Rich Niemann: 7'0" - drafted in 1968 Russell's last year. (1968-69 draft is done in the off season so his rookie year was Russell's last)
Billy Paultz: 6'11" - drafted in 1970
Craig Raymond: 6'11" - 1967
Elmore Smith: 7'0" - is drafted in 1971
Chuck Share: 6'11" - played from 1951-1960
Ronald Taylor: 7'1" - played when Russell was conveniently retired.
Nate Thurmond: 6'11" - Although Nate played in the Russell era he spent three years with Wilt, and only 3 more years to battle them both.

5.
But Russell was a great offensive player. He ranked top 10 and few times top 5 in assists, he was a two time leader in the playoffs too. He took over twice as the leading scorer, so he could score but decided to play differently.

BULLSHI!.

He could score but decided to play differently. He was a wreck on that end. 44%. He did not take that many shots because he would of made less of them.

6.
He shut down wilt chamberlain.

7.
Clutch.

Thats a nice list of clutch performances. Care to share his Fg? Ft%?

I'm relax enough lol.
But I do not see how someone with that type of a game can be considered the best player to even play.

tumblr_n8mwutxaIF1qm4qqco1_500.gif

S/O to TGIA for letting me cop the gif


#20 ONLINE   Jay

Jay

    Visionary

  • Members
  • 19,625 posts
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted 01 August 2011 - 09:24 AM

Bill Russel Averaged more than 5 assists on twice.
So did Kareem, while putting up points also.

1.
15 points on 44% is horrible. For a Center or Pf. 5 assists doesn't make it sound even a bit better.

2.
His Freethrow Percentage is horrible also. 56%.

3.
He was not good on the offensive end. Period. And If you have that kind of an offensive end YOU ARE NOT THE GRETEST OF ALL TIME.

4.
Compition. Look at some of his compition that makes rusell look good.

Dennis Awtrey: 6'11" - was drafted after Russell actually retired. (1970)
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0" - drafted in Russell's last year. (1968)
Jim Eakins: 6'11" - Drafted in 1968 after spending most of his better days in the ABA.
Hank Finkel: 7'0" - may have combated Russell for his last three years before transferring himself to Boston and winning a championship there.
Swede Halbrook: 7'3" - drafted in the same year as Bill but lasted only two seasons.
Bob Lanier: 6'11" - never made the 60's he was in the 70's.
Jim McDaniels: 6'11" - boy he was drafted in 1971.
Otto Moore: 6'11" - drafted in 1968 Russell's last year. (1968-69 draft is done in the off season so his rookie year was Russell's last)
Dave Newmark: 7'0" - drafted in 1968 Russell's last year. (1968-69 draft is done in the off season so his rookie year was Russell's last)
Rich Niemann: 7'0" - drafted in 1968 Russell's last year. (1968-69 draft is done in the off season so his rookie year was Russell's last)
Billy Paultz: 6'11" - drafted in 1970
Craig Raymond: 6'11" - 1967
Elmore Smith: 7'0" - is drafted in 1971
Chuck Share: 6'11" - played from 1951-1960
Ronald Taylor: 7'1" - played when Russell was conveniently retired.
Nate Thurmond: 6'11" - Although Nate played in the Russell era he spent three years with Wilt, and only 3 more years to battle them both.

5.
But Russell was a great offensive player. He ranked top 10 and few times top 5 in assists, he was a two time leader in the playoffs too. He took over twice as the leading scorer, so he could score but decided to play differently.

BULLSHI!.

He could score but decided to play differently. He was a wreck on that end. 44%. He did not take that many shots because he would of made less of them.

6.
He shut down wilt chamberlain.

7.
Clutch.

Thats a nice list of clutch performances. Care to share his Fg? Ft%?

I'm relax enough lol.
But I do not see how someone with that type of a game can be considered the best player to even play.

tumblr_n8mwutxaIF1qm4qqco1_500.gif

S/O to TGIA for letting me cop the gif





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users